[suren]

Hi Everyone. It’s been a while since I’ve been active on the forum. Its great to hear of everyone’s progress on here. I also really wanted to be able to share a positive update (grimace), but it hasn’t been smooth sailing on my end.

Last time I was on here, I was giving ACT a go. I tried it for a good 4 weeks, then grew frustrated as I watched my sleep quality continue to regress with time.

These days, I don’t have any particular technique that I practice. I’m less strict about my sleep window, I don’t do SR, but I do try to get out of bed at a set time each morning and implement one mindfulness technique each day.

This approach hasn’t been effective, as I’ve gone from getting about 2-3 hrs of non refreshing sleep (a couple weeks back) to virtually no sleep at all. I average about 4-5 no-sleep nights a week, and get about 2-3 hrs of sleep twice a week.

I would love to continue on without the use of sleep aids, but I’m in dire need of some sleep relief, and I’m right now thinking to give melatonin (or some other natural sleep aid) a go. Just for a little bit until I regain the strength and will to try ACT or CBT again.

The above said, for those of you that have had more success with ACT, can you advise- do you only go into bed when tired or sleepy?

I struggle with this, as I rarely feel sleepy, so this the case- I continuously jump into bed (night after night) while not sleepy knowing that there is a strong likelihood that I’ll have a bad night. But I just do not have the will and energy to remain out of bed waiting to get sleepy past midnight.

-Suren

[suren]

Hi Steve, I haven’t been too active on the forum these last days as things have been a tad hectic at my work. So haven’t had a chance to go thru the latest set of posts. Hope I haven’t missed any other questions directed at me, but in answer to your question: Yes, I did have a chance to check out the links provided, so thanks again for sharing the resource. It largely cited the key differences between CBT and ACT, which I had gleaned prior from various sources (primarily the sleep book), but it was good to revisit this info again.

Hope everyone else is doing well!! And look forward to getting caught up on all that I’ve missed soon.

Suren

[suren]

Your response finally came thru Steve. Looking forward to checking out the links shared. Thank a lot!

[suren]

Thanks for the question Deb. I think you’ve in large part answered it. But I’d also like to cite the following personal observations:
– As your sleep system repairs itself, I feel that we become more attuned to sleepiness cues and tiredness. On the flip side of this, I’ve also noticed that the longer you go with poor/no sleep, the more desensitized you are to (not only feelings of sleepiness) but tiredness as well. There are many who theorize that it’s simply that these cues are being masked by anxiety, and this opinion may be perfectly valid. Perhaps another theory- is that you get so accustomed to feeling tired, the feeling is no longer foreign; it’s so much a part of you, you no longer notice it’s presence, or only do when tired to an extreme degree.

Additionally, like many practicing ACT have reported, even on poor/sleepless nights- the mere act of resting in bed for 7-8 hours, results in feeling less fatigued and tired the next day. So in my case, while there was some underlying tiredness, it wasn’t significant and readily perceptible.

Whatever the reason, meditation and mindfulness practices should certainly help!!

[suren]

Thanks Deb. Last night I tried going to bed when neither tired nor sleepy, as I understood that this wasn’t a prerequisite for getting into bed. So I got into bed and decided to just accept the feeling of being alert. This didn’t work very well for me. I had another wreck of a night. So I can appreciate that you need to be at least tired when getting into bed.

About the watching tv in bed; a very bold suggestion indeed. And quite tempting as well, but after so many poor nights I’d likely hold off on further experimentation for a bit. This said, I am very curious about the outcome of doing this, so will revisit this experiment later. Will share the outcome when I do!

Suren

[suren]

Thanks Deb! You’re a bit of a legend on here. I was thinking we should retitle this thread ‘People seeking ACT support’

Yes, there has been a bit of progress between this week and the last. I noted and acknowledged this as well. This said, prior to starting CBT 2.5 months ago, I was having the same light sleep but sleeping for 8-9 hours uninterrupted as that’s how long I’d lie in for. At the time, I did not regard light sleep as sleep, as I always woke up exhausted. Plus with the light sleep there’s the perception of not sleeping at all. In short, I’d much rather have a single hour of restful sleep than 8 hrs of light sleep. I don’t even know what deep sleep feels like anymore.

Prior to the insomnia, I always watched tv in bed, and would turn it off and go to sleep when I felt tired, or when it was getting late and had to get up for work (about 12am on weekdays and 2am on weekends), which meant I always slept in on weekends. Watching tv for me always felt enjoyable and relaxing, and I never took notice as to whether it was overly stimulating or not. The other thing is that on weekends, I’d have very long naps during the day (3-4 hrs) and it never affected my sleep at night. So adopting old practices would mean reverting to watching tv in bed, which is not supported by either CBT or ACT. Back then, I would also climb into bed at 6pm, 5pm, and entertain myself in bed (texting on my phone, calling friends, playing games on my ipad etc. until it was time to sleep). My bed was the most heavenly place on earth!!

I will certainly check out Borgesbis post. I had a bad night yesterday and tried to remember the mindful practices, but had a hard time implementing them in bed. I thought perhaps daytime practice would make this fear easier.

One question for you Deb: I assume when you were doing CBT you only went into bed when tired or sleepy. In your 1st week of ACT, did you get into bed without feeling tired or sleepy? I ask, as I’m still waiting to feel some sign of sleepiness prior to getting into bed. The only difference is that now I don’t do stimulus control (like ever! haha) and I don’t have a strict sleep window, just a consistent wake up time.

Suren

[suren]

Thanks gsdmom, as well as for all of the useful routine suggestions. Outside of watching tv and reading, it sounds like I need to be creative with my wind down routine- as things not spontaneously enjoyed quickly loose their appeal. I’ve also tried listening to audio programs but after a bit, I just felt bored.

Thanks as well for sharing your own mindful practice. I’ve just started to do use the tools in the book, and do also care to get up to practicing 3x times.

I agree that recovery is a process. I was never looking for an immediate solution; just some tangible progress (however small) will be enough!;))

[suren]

Thanks Steve! Your feedback is helpful. My tv is 9’ away but it’s a 75” monitor, so I often worry about it’s stimulating effects.

Moving forward, I think I’ll be a bit more laxed about the tv watching.

Best,

Suren

[suren]

Thanks Steve! I look forward to your response once it makes its way past Martin’s checkpoint. Also commend your efforts in dealing with the unwanted thoughts.

Thanks as well Featherly for your tips on practicing the mindful exercises. I feel with practice, they will become easier.

Another area that I struggle with is with my wind down routine. I used to watch tv as a way to wind down (as I find reading at night makes me restless) but then the sleep book advises against it. So now I turn off the tv and idle in the dark, but doing so is not always relaxing. I don’t want to do anything that involves turning on a light. Are you able to share your own routines for winding down?

[suren]

Hi Everyone. I’ve been following this thread for a bit. I’ve had insomnia for a year, and started CBT back in May.

With the CBT, I got promising results (not refreshing but slightly better) sleep after the 1st week then things started to get progressively worse. I took a break from CBT about 2.5 weeks ago as I was running on a full month of 1-2 of light sleep daily and it just didn’t feel sustainable.

Encouraged by Debs results, I bought the sleep book and stated ACT 2 weeks ago, using a 7.5hr sleep window.

The 1st week, I experienced an average of 3hrs of light fragmented sleep. This week, I experienced about 4hrs of light fragmented sleep as well, but noted my anxiety level was significantly lower.

Last night, I felt a bit sleepy at 8:30pm. I fought the sleepiness and moments later was super alert. Then as my sleep window approached I started to feel super anxious. I went into bed at 10:30 not sleepy, and had a really bad almost sleepless night. I’m curious, but with ACT are you only supposed to go to bed when tired or sleepy? Do you guys follow this rule strictly? In other words, do you ever go into bed when not sleepy or tired? I did try to sleep (as opposed to just rest) last night so maybe that’s what did me in.

I am practicing being more relaxed and accepting in bed, but I haven’t been very good at practicing the mindful tools during the day. How often (and how much time do you dedicate during the day) to practicing the mindful tools?

Also, I haven’t had refreshing sleep once since May. I’ve been running on light sleep for months even when doing CBT. I’m hoping ACT will help me to sleep more deeply. I’m also hoping that I bounce back from last night.

Suren

[suren]

Thanks so much wsh. This makes me less pessimistic and less anxious about the physical side effects. It’s also encouraging to hear of your own recovery as well.

Best,

Natasha

[suren]

Thanks again Max! Your feedback makes much sense. My sleep also broke last August, and I went thru a bit of a medical nightmare after that, loosing my job, my health …and the last straw was my looks. I’m happy to hear that things are slowly righting themselves for you, including your driving ability. Yes, the brain is indeed such a complex and intriguing organism. But it sound like the lesson learnt is that the body does have the ability to self-heal! I started CBTI this May, so I’m looking forward to those better days.

[suren]

Hi Gsdmom. Thanks so much for sharing your experience. Super helpful. And indeed, as you need to pass thru stage 1 sleep to experience the deeper stages of sleep, it makes sense to relax and give your body the chance to do so.

So the ideal reaction, is not to get out of bed when experiencing this sleep state (which I’ve been guilty of in the past), but shortening your time in bed to lessen the probability of this sleep state. This said, there may still be some prudence in getting out of bed if on this state for 3+ hours to break the association between bed and poor sleep (???).

Thanks as well for the feedback on the physical impact of sleep deprivation. I’ve lost all the fullness and suppleness in my face, got eye bags and dark circles, sagging cheeks in just months. One dermatologist told me that these changes aren’t reversible, and it really spiked my anxiety at the time. But there’s a part of me that is still hopeful that with restorative sleep, my appearance will slowly come back in.

[suren]

Thanks so much Max! Your response means a lot, as this has been my biggest challenge. Falling to sleep and being in this comatosed (half asleep/half awake) state.

Moving forward, I will try to the extent possible to practice stimulus control when in this state. But the challenge herein ofcourse is that when you are experiencing this light sleep, it’s difficult to snap out of it and get out of bed (as you’re only half conscious).

By the way, my sleep challenges also started last August.

Also, if you do not mind me asking, did you experience any droopiness and sagging of the facial skin from the insomnia? And if yes, did it improve with sleep. I know it sounds quite superficial, but this is also another one of my woes!

Natasha

[suren]

Hi Max,

Congrats on your recovery!

During your insomnia (or initial stages of your recovery), did you ever experience light superficial sleep. The kind where you get up feeling not refreshed and exhausted?

Natasha

[Author]

Posts