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I think ACT/Mindfulness and CBT-I/SRT and SC are complementary.
The only thing I think is silly about CBT-I is getting out of bed after 15 mins if you don’t sleep. I always thought that was ludicrous. Get out of bed if you are not chilled and mindful and accepting, otherwise best stay there and just rest.
Have a regular chill out bedtime routine, try to get up roughly same time (bit don’t be a total slave to this) and keep sleep a bit restricted (but don’t be a total slave to this either), and practice ACT/mindfulness and things will come together.
I have enjoyed this debate. I think it has been very good.
Ha, I’m naturally super sporty and love adrenaline and going fast, rollercoasters and that sort of thing.
My wife is a great skier, but started when much younger than me. But I’ve tried it on at least four weeks and don’t get on with it at all. Too painful in my feet. Love being in the mountains though and fresh air.
Maybe there is a link between being rubbish at skiing and poor sleep. Ha! 🙂
I would save your money.
Great book by Meadows but don’t spend any more cash there.
You may recall I went on a day course they had in London, where I live. Waste of time.
Course price dropped to a half of what I paid for it, two days before course as they obviously had problems filling seats.
Course was with six other insomnia sufferers. The host of the course basically just went thought the book and all the hand outs were from the book.
No discussion between the participants was encouraged.
When I said I managed on about 4 hrs sleep, the host said she was surprised, which made me feel worse.
And while Guy Meadows and the ACT approach I think has much merit in it…. Mindfulness and ACT does make a lot of sense in incorporate in tackling insomnia using CBTi, remember that Guy’s doctorship was in something else. He is not a consultant in the NHS or anything.
I have a PHD (in economics) and could call myself a doctor too!
The reviews I have read online about their consultancy were poor – cancelled appointments, poor therapists.
And GM does rather resemble Tony Blair, which may put some off 🙂
Smart businessman though and his approach in the book is excellent. But I’d just read the book and leave it at that.
Interesting talk.
Some key differences to me: Again, not sure he ever experienced nil sleep nights, or if he did it was rare for him.
I never felt anxious feelings in my life ever, before I had insomnia, which started 30 months ago, when I was 54. He said he did recall getting anxiety before he developed insomnia, therefore could not attribute all his next day anxious feelings to a “bad night”
Yes, I feel same, except I get a lot of nil sleep nights….See also the blog post “4 years of insomnia”
“…….Like relapses, I don’t understand why some nights I just lay down and sleep and other nights it’s a struggle (it shouldn’t be a struggle but rather accepting….”
Think you have hit the nail on the head there.
Like you, there is no rhyme or reason why insomnia starts….. its not linked to stress levels at all.
And like you I find it hard to let go and accept, be in the moment, not strive (for sleep), have patience when it does not happen right away, trust (in my ability to sleep)…all the good mindfulness stuff.
Hard to do, sounds simple, but there is no other way really…. Pills and potions don’t work, so what’s left when you’ve done and you do all the CBT-I stuff and the right sleep hygiene, what is left…..?
…but I think sometimes its worth getting out of bed and doing something else, like watching a good TV programme and forgetting all about sleeping…..
One thing I would additionally comment on, having just now read Martin’s Success Stories, is that all the people there, before they enrolled on the course were actually apparently getting SOME sleep.. … Maybe not enough for their liking, but they were regularly getting SOME …. i.e. they were like Mac and Debs, who comment here regularly.
None of the case studies seemed to reported NIL sleep nights, like Davy, FrozenSun and myself have experienced on a regular basis.
Mmm, this is interesting.
I respect Martin’s professional views on this, but the fact is I feel so bad after a night of nil sleep – tight chest, nausea feelings and high anxiety all day, that it is hard to believe that could have nil effect long term on the rest of my health.
But what Martin says does echo what my NHS sleep consultant says and also Chris Winter (US based sleep expert) in his book, The Sleep Solution who drew a difference between people who are sleep deprived due to work / lifestyle choices (e.g. workaholics), who he said do suffer health effects and people who allowed themselves enough time to sleep but could not get much (or any).
The latter, these experts all say, had nil effect on their health.
I do like to believe them, but have to say, the way I feel after a nil sleep night, I find it hard to believe it has nil effects on rest of my health.
I’m referring here to people like me, Davy and FrozenSun who have nights on nil sleep, not those people who often post on this site and who get four / five hours often, but still think that is not enough. No disrespect to them, and I don’t decry their experience, but in my view, they may not suffer any consequences to rest of their health, because they are still getting SOME sleep very often.
At v minimum, the effect of ill health feelings after a nil sleep night must surely lead to suicide in at least some people, especially if depression arises from the high anxiety.
Davy and FrozenSun, I’m interested if you have a family history of insomnia. I have – both father and his mother lived with v severe insomnia with regular nil sleep nights. One good thing though, Granny lived to 84 and Dad is still going at 92! They, like me had regular nil sleep nights. I’m just grateful I have never yet had two in a row, unlike FrozenSun. I do feel for him!
Delv X – I totally recognize what you say. That is me all over!
I may go fine for two weeks, think I’m cured, then bang, out of nowhere, a nil-sleep night. Then it may be two weeks where four or five nights are nil sleep nights. And the anxiety at night and day about sleep rushes in. It’s what I call “All or Nothing”
Hi FrozenSun,
I really feel for you my friend.
Like you I have nights of nil sleep. Real insomnia, not like the folks who “only” get four hours.
I have rigorously followed CBTI with Sleep Restriction and Acceptance methods to the letter for long periods.
And after 30 months I still have it.
Have also tried lots of different drugs and homeopathic medicines, tried acupuncture, meditation, mindfulness, etc. but they all stop working after a bit. The only drug that works in Zopiclone but I hate that as it often only gives you 2 to 3 hours and you feel awful after. Plus, docs won’t keep prescribing it. So I rarely take that.
I have seen the top therapist and been on two sets of courses with the NHS (UK health service) at top hospitals in London
Basically, I am resigned to living with this condition for the rest of my life – and just accepting it. Either that or want to end it all. Not kidding, but I have a lovely wife and kid, so have to be brave, though I cry a lot.
My insomnia just starts on its own and has no trigger at all, no stress. I am convinced it is caused by some chemical imbalance.
I either sleep right away or cant sleep at all. I’m starting working on reducing stress when I don’t sleep straight away, mainly through mindful acceptance.
It is a truly horrible affliction.
