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Thanks Martin,
Yes, I always seem to sleep OK the night after a nil sleep night, which is good, as I see there are some poor people who don’t even get that!
Yes, I have tried re-framing thoughts. Trying to keep busy too. Re the thoughts, yes, as soon as I get a negative thought…. e.g. “I may not sleep tonight too”, I try to counter with a positive one, e.g. “Well that has never happened and is almost totally unlikely”
At night I am trying to follow what you said….”If you cant sleep, just relax, rest and see what happens” Also, being just accepting of it (mindful)….as well as trying to do SRT and SCT. I do it all in an effort to reduce anxiety about not sleeping.
I think these help a bit. I get less anxious at night, but still these episodes of nil sleep nights come….
Its just annoying!
Hi Martin,
I think the only real key difference between Meadows and the traditional approach is that he’s softer on the idea of bed only for ahem, adult activities and sleep. Plus, and more importantly, he’s against getting up every 15 mins if one cannot sleep.
Otherwise, I think adding mindfulness (esp acceptance) is the key add-on with him.
But I agree with you. one needs to keep practising this acceptance approach – not easy – and bring it into your whole life.
Like Deb and Mac, me and all insomnia sufferers, we do find this aspect hard to do. Insomnia people so like to be in control (a point / fact verified by Chris Winter in his book, The Sleep Solution) – which is why “Acceptance” for us as a concept is hard. We get it, we just find it hard to do!
Deb and Mac, your last two or three posts on here could have been written by me! You are exactly like me in terms of how you so want to turn off the rising anxiety, but in practice, even when you are really being mindful, it is so darned hard to do in the middle of the night when you’ve been awake for 3,4 hours, or as in my case, sometimes, all bleedin’ night!
But by sharing experiences, we will get there. So good to read comments by people whose experiences are so close to mine. That is very comforting indeed – and I wish more people would enjoy the benefit of this site!
Five hours. If I could be guaranteed that every night, I’d be a very happy man.
It’s all relative isn’t it, this sleep thing!
There are many like you.
I am one.
Read the other posts on here to get some reassurance.
Remember if you have a night of nil sleep or two, you WILL sleep in the end.
Get reading the posts..
Deb and Mac,
You have echoed my thinking exactly. And for me it tends to be All or Nothing….. go to sleep right away or not, and then be awake all of the night (or most of it).
And you are right, beating this stupid illogical fear is the hard bit.
That is why I may, if the silly anxiety gets too much at night, actually get up for a bit and read my own positive thoughts about this from my own journal. This EITHER can be orientated towards Acceptance – to realise I can just lie and rest in awareness without TRYING to sleep AND/OR challenging negative thoughts about sleep (CBT).
But I am getting better at just lying there and accepting it.
I’m lucky and grateful that once I have slept for an hour or so (and wake up, as I always do at least four times a night), I can then almost always get back to sleep again. And also lucky if when I have a night on no sleep at all, I can always sleep easily the next night.
Plus, I am fine on around 5 hours. If I were to have 7 hours occasionally, I love it, but it always leads to me not being sleepy the next night.
So I am lucky.
Often, I will take Valerian tablets (herbal, pretty harmless). And also, v. occasionally, will take Mirtazapine (7.5mg) if I should need to try to break an episodic run of sleepless nights. See my other post about this – and when I take it.
Glad you liked it.
That’s why I thought you and Deb would enjoy the read and benefit from this way of looking at things differently. It’s helped this slightly obsessive person – me! – with my sleep … getting it a bit better, slowly!
Folks, if you haven’t already, you might find this post, which I started and Martin has added some useful comments on, of some interest…
Totally agree, Martin. Good flexible approach.
Shame that here in the UK, our NHS (health service) does not seem to take the same line – they are a bit dogmatic and most practitioners, and even consultants in sleep medicine here don’t seem to have heard about ACT – and in Colin Epsie’s book, which is their bible I don’t recall it mentioned either.
Part of success in overcoming sleep phobia issues, it to learn to listen to your body and do the approach that works for you.
Here is a link to a view of the Acceptance Commitment Approach (AST) to sleep.
OK it is by Guy Meadows, who it must be said, is a big proponent of its use to fight insomnia in the UK, and he has a business around it, a book, day-workshops etc. So, it may be a bit biased. But ACT is, of course, a recognised psychological approach I think originally formulated by a man called Stephen Hayes. So it is routed in theory.
In the article, he does compare some differences between standard CBT-I (CBT for insomnia) approaches with ACT, which is useful to read.
I think both approaches can compliment each other, which he kind of says too.
How much you take from each is up to you – and your personality. But look at yourself – trust your mind and body and go with what works for you. (As Martin says, “Your body will sleep in the end, no matter how anxious about sleep you are”, but that’s another matter, though routed in mindfulness (and common sense, for that matter)).
Personally, I generally don’t like the idea of getting up if not asleep after 15 mins – too stressful for me, and I don’t think it would calm my anxiety, but I will get up sometimes, if I feel I need to do some positive self talk/ do some mindful thinking. Others may be OK with that.
I’m OK with keeping the same wake up time and restricting sleep. No stresses there for me. But I note that Meadows thinks that some folk may find this too anxiety-making. He may be right, he may be wrong. I can’t see how SRT and SCT can be harmful, but from reading some folk’s testimonies, I wonder if it is too stressful, for them.
So, in a nutshell, it’s what works for you. Listen to your body and go for what works.
Kind regards
Daf
Super advice there. Read more of the blog posts on here too – just seeing that you are not alone will help a lot.
Plus there is a lot of good advice on here from people who suffered and got better. You may have to spend some time to find it, but it’s there…
Partial quote from a man at another site I read sais this…
Partial quote from bemmeh:
…The moment I stopped struggling against insomnia it simply started going away, though not suddenly. It took quite a while. But the improvement was real from the start. Insomnia is not a thing in itself. The ability to sleep is so strong among us, humans or animals in general, that it is almost impossible to seriously alter it. Insomnia in us humans appears when we TRY (and therefore struggle) to sleep. You just need to stop doing all the things you are doing FOR sleeping and let your body and mind do whatever they want – if you sleep it’s OK but if you don’t, that’s OK too (everybody has bad sleep for all kinds of reasons once in a while). When sleep time comes just go to bed, close your eyes, and rest. Don’t TRY to sleep, as you are used to do. Just rest! If sleep comes that’s OK, if it doesn’t that’s OK too, you haven’t been very successful in getting the amount and quality of sleep you have desired anyway – that’s why you call yourself an insomniac. So why keep on trying/desiring? Just let it go. Accept your reality and move on to the things in life you can control over. Sleep is not something we can control. You just need to trust your body and mind for it and stop trying to do anything whatsoever for it. Good luck!
I totally agree with what you are saying there – you echo my approach exactly.
It’s starting to work for me, though I have had to change the way I am a bit over the last two years to become a more laid back, less obsessional type of person. This has been no bad thing for me.
As I have realised how obsessional and driven I am deep down, and how this has hurt me in the past (a glorious revelation I had whilst out running one day), I have changed, become a bit more mindful and my sleep has got better.
I do wish other folks on here could also “soften” in their view of sleep, instead of being so focussed on whether they get 4 hours or 8 a night, (I’d be happy with 4 or 5 every night for the rest of my days, but I accept we all have different needs), I think it would help them. But part of doing that involves becoming a lot more mindful – and that takes time. But it’s a nice journey. I’ll never be an old hippy, but being more accepting of life, less driven, more calm has been a great journey.
Thanks Mac, yes I understand. Yes, we are all very different in this – i.e. our sleep need. My son, who is 16 seems to need 9 hours!
They used to say Margaret Thatcher managed on 3 hours. But then her chauffer said, “Aye, but she had loads of little naps between engagements”
Golly, uninterrupted sleep for 6 hours.
I think I’d steal candy from a kid to have that every night. Think I’d steal it from my own kid!!
It must be better than it was before, though Mac? Did you not have to have nil-sleep nights before (or sorry if I’m mixing you up with someone else)
Glad it’s working for you.
D
Good advice from Martin there.
I think we all have to accept that every night wont necessarily be optimal.
And remember, good sleepers, (your wife or husband maybe – funny how every insomniac I have ever met has a partner who sleeps like the dead! I do!), wouldn’t even give it a second thought if they could not fall asleep for a few hours.
They would certainly not get anxious and end up having a nil sleep night!!
That is what we have to work on – not getting anxious if not sleeping in 30 mins, an hour, three hours, whatever….and frankly learning to develop a WTF attitude when that occurs, as it does even for my wife, once in a flipping blue moon.
After all, you will sleep in the end. If not tonight, then almost certainly the next night. The sleep drive will eventually trump the anxiety in the end. So, as Martin said in one earlier email. “If you can’t sleep just try to just relax and see what happens”
Thanks for that – and I am very sorry to hear of your losses.
From all my research on this drug and from own experience, 7.5MG is the right dose for insomnia. Larger doses do not work as well at all. Lots of quality research online on this unusual aspect of it.
15Mg and more is what they give people for ongoing depression, as opposed to feeling depressed the odd day after a “Nil-sleeping” night.
I have found the key is to take it at least one hour before you go to bed. Taking it in middle of night, when you cannot get to sleep does not seem to work regularly. So avoid that.
I have taken it on a very occasional basis to break episodes of insomnia up and restore good sleep. It does have a long life and makes you feel drousy into the next day and even next night too, though, so maybe not great for old people who may have poor balance and indeed maybe people who have to drive / operate machinery next day (unless they are prepared to counter with a heavy dose of caffeine).
But it is that long half life – that is good for me. Because even the next night I still feel in a “cool-drousy place” and can sleep well.
It has regularly broken up long episodes of insomnia for me, (where I’m getting nil sleep say two to three times a week for 3 weeks)….. I have then used it for one night. And it has broken up the pattern.
I only take it on an occasional basis to do this.
But seems to work and gives a much longer sleep than Zopiclone.
Would avoid on a regular basis (for non-permanently depressed people) as much research says it is hard to withdraw from if you take it regularly.
Generally, I avoid drugs, but this has worked ad hoc for me to break episodes of insomnia.
Of course, its use as anti-insomnia is a side effect of it, this drug is used on regular basis for people with moderate to severe depression. And in those circs it it usually prescribed for every day use.
Hope this helps.
Daf (Him in that there, London)
Of course, I’m not a doctor!
