Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Lovely to hear from you both again.
I always think we can hope for some promised land where we could get at least 5 and half hours sleep each and every night, but I think we, at the same time, may all have to accept that this might not happen. Perhaps being realistic is the best approach.
I think I said before that often for me there is no stressor that causes it to re-start, but re-start it does. One of these days, I think they will isolate some hormone or something that will provide the answer as to whly folks like me and many on here have the same experience – it can re-start with no obvious cause.
In my case, all I can do is celebrate that I’m generally a bit better than I was, and that if I have a night of nil sleep, I always slept OK the following night. Also, I’m grateful that once I’ve got an hour so of sleep, I can always get back to sleep, when I wake up (which I do about 3 times a night to use the toilet).
I realise not all folks on here are like me. For some it is sleep maintenance that’s the issue, for others I know they can experience days of nil sleep. (I really feel bad for them).
But at least we can all help and encourage each other. It is a great resource.
Kind regards
DafYes, this is all excellent advice.
I have not posted for a bit, but thought I would update now, as I seem to be gradually getting better. I only had three nil sleep nights in March to May, though June has kicked off with 2, which is a setback as the month is only ten days old. But it is a big improvement for me as in the past I had some months where I had 8 or 9 nights of nil sleep in a month, sometimes.
Fortunately for me, these nil sleep nights are not consecutive, in other words two nights in a row, which I know some others of you have suffered in the past, which must be awful
I practice SRT and SC, perhaps with a bit of mindfulness/ acceptance thrown in the mix. I also take 3.75mg (a v low dose of mirtazapine), every two nights out of three, but think effect is mainly probably placebo. But I am down from 7.5mg. I’m pretty sure I can come off it totally.
What I wanted to add is that I think though that I accept I will always have some issues with insomnia. I don’t think it is something I can ever expect to go away totally. I have had it for almost 3 years – and there has been past periods when it has loosened its grip, only to come back.
I think I have accepted this fact and that helps a lot, so when it comes back I can deal with it better.
I think this attitude has meant that when I do get the odd night of nil sleep, this has meant they have tended to be more isolated events, than being part of a series of say 9 nights in a month.
I don’t know what you all think.
My father had bad insomnia and his mother too, so I wonder if it is inherited. My Dad is going well at 92, so it does not kill you, though it does bring him down, as it does me, but a positive attitude has helped me.
Update – The Mirtazapine is really working. I now take just 3.75mg two nights out of three (a quarter of the standard min size pill here in UK of 15mg) and it still works really well. I’m sure I can come off totally in the next 6 weeks.
In the last 3 months I’ve only had three nil- sleep nights – caused by other stressors.
Do read my previous posts on here about WHEN to take it… as this really makes a difference.
Also, I do stimulus control and SRT (I keep sleep down to no more than 5.5hrs or maybe 6.5 hrs at absolute max a night, so that my sleep drive next night is strong) and have developed a very Acceptance based / Mindful approach to life as per Guy Meadow’s sleep book and the Acceptance Commitment based approach to sleep).
I’m generally anti-drugs but really do recommend low doses of Mirtazapine for people like me who have really struggled in the past.
(No other drugs worked for me other than Zopiclone but it’s addictive, too powerful and knocks you out for only up to say 3 hrs. And the docs here is UK will not keep giving it to you either)
Oh, it does now….. I guess the technology was “catching up” with the cache. or something!
Martin,
Why does my last post (see above) not show up under current discussion topics?
I thought I’d just give an update on my Mirtazapine experience.
After another run of insomnia – 8 nil-sleep nights in a month I Jan 2019, I decided to go on 7.5mg Mirtazapine – basically taking every night… and the key for success is to take around one hour before you want to ideally sleep.
Well, it’s been OK and I have slept well. After three weeks success, I moved to taking it every second night three weeks ago. That has been OK too. Regularly getting 5 to 6.5hrs sleep a night.
My recent attempts to go one further – to taking it one night in three have been less successful. And I have found I could not sleep – so had to take Zopiclone, which works ….but I hate as it only gives me about 3hrs sleep.
(Interestingly, some of you might like to google the article in the New York Times and other places…. “How to Quit Antidepressants. Very Slowly, Doctors Say”. This quotes new research which suggest coming off any antidepressant drug like this should be done much more slowly than previous advice suggests – and that you should taper down to a fortieth of the original prescription! Of course, how one does that, with a drug that is tiny anyway and comes in a min size of 15mg in UK is anyone’s guess – get your microscopes and pestles and powders out and micro-weight measures, I guess )
But I’m sleeping and am happy. Sure, mirt does make you a bit groggy and put on a bit of weight, but though I put on extra 6% weight in a month, it has stayed there, not increased. It’s also important to keep restricting sleep. I do. Mirt can mean its a struggle to get up. Some nights I could go for 7 even 8 hours net sleep, but I force myself up after 5 to 6 hrs, so I have high sleep drive the next night.
I hope this helps
Daf
I don’t think it is that unusual, especially as one gets older. I wake between 3 and 5 times
Yes, I do have good genes. But as you say, not for sleeping.
I’m same as you. When a kid I can never recall staying in bed asleep till 9, nor when I was a teenager.
My teenage son age 17 sleeps for Britain! And my wife often gets 9 hours.
Crazy isn’t it
Hi Jazzcat,
I am the same too sometimes. If I drop off a bit on couch at 10pm, I have to go to sleep then and there or else I too get a second wind often, if I go up the stairs to bed.
Drives me mad.
I think you said before (on another post) that you also get nil-sleep nights?
I know Martin does not agree, but like you, I think they will in the future prove a link to some neuro-chemical or other.
Worth adding, my Dad and his mother were both bad insomnia sufferers. But good news is she lived to 84 and my Dad is still walking about and fairly fit at 93.
After a night of nil sleep I have never yet (tough wood) had a second one (unlike some poor sods on here – I really feel for them)!
If I get 7.5hrs or more, that is only on about 2% of occasions. And only ever occurs after a night of nil sleep and often because I have taken Mirtazapine, which is a Godsend on occasion.
Hope this helps
Kind regards
Daf in London
Hi Sally Ann
I’m exactly the same as you.
Nil sleep nights, then a night where I have too much – which for me is over 6.5hrs, then the following night another nil sleep
It is also so unpredictable – nil sleep nights have come in series that last up to a month, in which up to 12 nights will be nil sleep nights.
I can then be fine for periods of a few weeks. Then it starts again.
And there is no stress trigger.
I’m convinced after 3 years of this, that it must be caused by a chemical imbalance.
Try all the SBTI stuff and ACT therapies. Also, mirtazapine (remeron) for periods at a time (7.5mg)
Thanks Aeglaeca,
At least it does pass. And I’m same as you – once I have a good nights sleep I’m fine.
I’m grateful the episodes of nil-sleep nights, at least seem to be shorter lasting now – a combination of sleep restriction therapy (keeping my sleep less than 6 and a half hours on the good nights, avoiding sleeping in), mindfulness and the occasional use of Mirtazapine have done the job to break up episodes.
Hope it continues.
I wonder at it too, Carls. (You may get angrily shot down for suggesting that!)
But I guess we have to take their word for it when they say that “only getting 4 or 6 hours sleep” is awful for them.
I wondered whether for those people, there was another ailment present.
But they say that when they get their target 7 or 8 hours, they feel fine, so “it must be lack of sleep that is the problem”
I really wonder though, whether for those kind of people there is something else wrong other than sleep.
I know for me, 4hours a night would not be ideal, but it would be liveable with. With 5 and a half hours I feel fine, well rested and alert enough until 10 or 11pm. If I have 7 or more hours, I risk not being sleepy the following night, so 7 is really too much to keep a nice pattern going for me.
This huge variance is interesting.
Clearly an insomniac is just someone who worries about how much sleep they get (no matter what the experts say is the right amount, (which can vary hugely between people anyway))
Odd isn’t it. Remeron, also known as Mirtazapine worked for me but only when I took it an hour before intended sleep time and then used next hour to just chill out.
Hi Steve, Luckily I have never had two or more nil sleep nights in a row. I feel for people that do. And yes, one cannot decry another’s experience, if it is making that person feel bad.
Hi Edgar, You ask some very good questions there re specifics. Like you, I suspect it rather bugs me when people say they “had a bad night” without being specific as to what that means. .. rather annoyingly lacking detail.
It’s funny but when my insomnia was very bad (well bad for me!)….. say three week periods in which there would be maybe 8 or 9 days sleepless out of 21, with the rest being a mix of some really good 8 hours and 3 hours…. at those times I would happily take 4 or 5 hours a night every night instead.
But now I’m getting around 6 hours each night, with just the very occasional nil-sleep night – say twice a month, I’d probably not welcome 4 hours every night . It’s all relative.
But your question is good cos it strikes to the heart of the “relative-ness” issue. We always want better.
Maybe if we all are a bit more accepting and um, mindful in our lives (ACT approach to insomnia as per Guy Meadows adopted from Hayes et al), them maybe we would all sleep better.
As the gaffer here of this site says in one of his emails, “If you can’t sleep then so what. Maybe just rest Just accept it, try to relax and see what happens”
Last night as I said, I was just not tired, so spent a great 3 hrs watching Corrie and then a doc on our Cambridge Spy, Guy Burgess. Fascinating, the Russians couldn’t fathom how being in MI5 and being openly gay and alcoholic was allright and actually protected our spies because British upper class society was so hypocritical. I digress…..Anyway, forgot all about sleeping. Then by 230am felt tired.
In old days I would have tried for sleep at midnight – and not got it.
I think I’m learning to soften my approach to life and sleep and it is working a bit. Insomnia will no doubt come back, but I feel better able to nip it in the bud.
Re your Granddad. My Dad is the same. He’s not got dementia but it 92 now. Swears he is a bad sleeper but we have all seen him nap in the day too. And I think he does not realise when he is asleep at night too due to old age impairing his awareness.
Kind regards
Daf in that there London
