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Hi Deb
Glad to hear! Last week was good for me. The past few nights, I’ve been slipping. Last night I woke up around 4am and my mind was chatting and my body was tense and alive. I stayed in bed and just relaxed. Trying to accept the sensation and accept if I don’t sleep. 7Am, got up and feel tired, a little zombie like and lazy. I am only on chapter/week 2 that just starts to talk about the techniques.
I watched a show on Netflix called “A user’s guide to to cheating death” and there was an episode on sleep. A lot was covered in the hour. If anyone is curious, it’s worth a watch.
SRT can help with associating bed with sleep. For some people it works well. For others, a too strict SRT may make things worse because the act of overthinking, overdoing, overwinding for bed can make things worse.
Deb and I are incorporating a more ACT approach. Not to say you throw everything out the window but rather ease up so your mind is more at ease. For example go to bed and wake up at the same time. With CBT-I it is strict with that. With ACT, you go to bed and wake up at the same time but allows wiggle room of 30 minutes if need be. CBT-I, bed is for sleep and sex only, ACT is sleep, sex and light reading if you wish.
The big difference is with when you are in bed for 20 minutes and can’t sleep. With CBT-I you get out of bed and find something to do in another room until you get sleepy. With ACT, you stay in bed, rest and welcome the discomfort.
Allow normal bedroom activities
CBT-I: NO – Use the bed for sleep and sex only
ACT-I: YES – Allow calm non sleep activities such as reading in bedGo to bed when either tired or sleepy
CBT-I: NO – Only when sleepy
ACT-I: YES – Both states allowedStay in bed, if awake at night
CBT-I: NO – If not asleep within 15mins, go to a spare room/read
ACT-I: YES – Focus on resting and welcoming discomfortAllow daytime naps
CBT-I: NO – Avoid all daytime napping
ACT-I: YES – Allow a short (<20mins) daytime napsKeep in mind CBT-I has been more thoroughly studied. ACT-I is a different approach that may work better for others but has less backing study wise for the moment.
Hi Mac,
It could be that your body doesn’t need the extra 30-90 minutes of sleep. As we age, we typically need less sleep and 6-6.5 hours may be optimal. As for wanting to sleep longer, I am not sure how to increase it other than being either more tired or sedation (booze, herbs, meds). Perhaps sticking with 6.5 hours for a few more weeks and then gradually increasing it may help add extra time.
What I am interested in Mac if you can chime in is you mentioned that your anxiety is down to 5%. What do you think helped the most? or was it the combination of sleep restriction, being very tired, wind down?
My issue is similar to yours but it’s less predictable. I may get a week of 6-6.5 hours and then get a streak of 4 or so. For example went to bed at 12:00 and then was up at 4:00am and I was just unable to fall back asleep.
I do practice mindfulness and try to relax. I don’t use it to fall asleep because that I found isn’t helpful. I try to incorporate mindfulness throughout the day. Being more aware of the present moment rather than my mind drifting off into the past and future worries. It can be hard when you feel tired and a zombie but I try. As for relaxation, massages and hot baths, read, colour is what I do.
It’s hard to say how effective it is but I do find it helps me deal with the day to day stress and anxiety. This can help with the quality of sleep. If I get decent sleep, the day is usually decent. If sleep is crap then the worry machine ramps up.
If you are interested there is an app called Mindfulness Coach that’s free.
Hi Mac
I’ve been doing decent actually the past week or so with about 6 hrs of sleep average but at least able to fall asleep, get back to bed if I wake up and wake up with relative ease. I do wake up before my 7am time but Ill take what I can get. Last night was a little more difficult but I am trying not to worry about it because I believe it will just make it worse.
I think most of us on the boat will find that pushing the to bed time/wind down earlier will result in an earlier rise time. For me it’s more frustrating so I try to stick with 12:00 or even a bit later. I just have this feeling that if I go to bed at 10 that I will be up 3-4am and then be bored, frustrated and more exhausted.
You’ll get past this hump!
I was reflecting my past and how I knew I would be in for a bad night but still muddle through and get back on track. For example a few years ago I went to San Francisco and the first night I stayed in a hostel. With jet lag, being away from my regular mattress and the noise of 3 other people in a dorm I had crap sleep even with a few drinks. I don’t recall the next day being that bad and the next night I was in a hotel and slept rather well if I recall.
The thing with alcohol I found was I would fall asleep pretty fast but would always need to wake up to pee. I also found even though I slept, I felt just as tired if not more tired than me now. I just feel more zoned out.
I know how that is. I would race downstairs and swallow whatever from melatonin, valerian, kava kava, bendryl, l-theanine etc. I used to have a few drinks almost every night and didn’t know how much it affected sleep. It would put me to sleep but I would wake up early (funny how this is still the case for me. I haven’t had a drink in 4 months). My goal is to get my sleep under control and if I decide to have a drink it would be early on in the evening. Like a glass of wine for dinner.
For my personal feel better CBT moment, I think with the 5-6 hours I am averaging now, it should be better and more restorative than the 6-8 hours on evenings before that I would have 2-5 units of alcohol. I wasn’t a heavy drinker but would have a few almost every night. There is a slight possibility that my brain is still adjusting and a factor in why sleep is blah. Either way regardless of why sleep has been more difficult, I am sticking with the plan as I have been. I have had weeks of 90%+ sleep efficiency before so I know I am capable of it!
“So earlier when you said the good news was that you were staying asleep better, that didn’t mean staying asleep until the alarm clock goes off. Did that mean that you were waking up throughout the night and couldn’t fall back asleep but now are able to?”
Yes, we all wake up throughout the night. When I meant I am staying asleep better is either A) I wake up unconsciously and just fall back asleep as I should B) Waking up and being aware that I am up and perhaps going to pee and coming back and going to bed and falling asleep.
I may reduce my window by 30 minutes for a few weeks and see how that goes. Over Christmas I was naturally doing so with guests and family events keeping me up until 12:45-1:30 am.
Hi Deb,
Actually it’s on the back end. Ill wake up between 5:00am and 6:30am (30 to 1.5 hrs earlier than I should). It’s rare that Ill wake up to the alarm clock. I find that if I have say 45-60 minutes I hope to fall back asleep. As a teenager I would be able to hit snooze and fall back asleep in a very short time. Now it feels like cortisol spiking through me. Sometimes I am relaxed but can’t sleep, sometimes I can dose off and sometimes it’s just too intense that Ill get out of bed.
One option is that I push my to bed time a bit later say 30-60 more minutes. I guess the question to myself is if my body just is ok with the status quo or is the early rise due to other factors such as worrying about the day ahead etc.
Amen to that! Just stop caring. Guy Meadows book should arrive in a few days. Will give me something to read. Right now I do have a routine but it’s not a consistent one. Sometimes I take a hot bath, sometimes I don’t. Sometimes Ill have a banana before bed, sometimes I don’t. It’s what I feel like and trying not to make anything a must do or else Ill have a bad night. =
I’ve found weekends to be harder to stay consistent. I am more tempted to stay in bed a little longer, try for a cat nap, feel more bored. With the winter it’s harder to find activities to do. The worst are the dark overcast days. Today is sunnier, got 5.5 hours of sleepish. The sun is out for the most part so that’s good.
Thanks for the support Deb. Last few days were ok. About 5.5-6.0 hours of sleep on average. Through the day I do get waves of I want to sleep but the only place I can and was a habit for many years was the car. I would drive up the road to the dog park and 90% of the time be able to just nod off for 10-15 minutes. Ever since this issue started, the car naps are full of anxiety and I think making it worse. I am avoiding that and pushing sleep until midnight. I am trying not to care as much and just go to bed. The good news is staying asleep is getting better. I would wake up and pee and go back to bed. I am always waking up about an hour too early. Things are better but I know I am not through this. I just need to stop caring about if, how, when, why sleep.
I purchased Guy Meadows’s book and should arrive in a few days. I found that nights where I am too busy and just not doing anything fancy to sleep, I sleep better. I’ve had evenings where I would come home and it would be late and just head to bed and sleep. The nights where I am winding down for 2 hours in preparation for bed seems to make it worse. When I am in bed and not caring about sleep, I tend to fall asleep faster and fall asleep faster if I do wake up in the middle of the night. I just find that after a few days or weeks I get derailed. But his approach makes sense. I used to fear public speaking and have embraced it and enjoy it actually. Now I am starting to give names to feelings through the day and trying not to get to me or laugh and say “oh hello there again, welcome back”.
I am not giving up CBT-I but rather adjunct with a more acceptance approach. I will still get up and go to bed roughly at the same time. Keep my sleep window 7 hours. Realize my body’s need for sleep is as basic and strong as breathing. I am not crazy. Many people deal with this and I am not alone. What I need is to strengthen my technique for nights where I can’t get back to sleep and my body and mind is just too wired.
Hello all,
I was out of town (Vermont skiing) for a few days. Just wanted to give an update. I was anxious a few days leading up to the trip. Will I sleep ok in a hotel? How will I be able to drive for 8+ hours? Will I get anxiety? I’ve been trying to continue living my life. Not backing out on plans, working, working out etc. A trip was a bit of a big one for me since my insomnia started.
The night before I left I felt like I slept awfully and I think I logged 3 hours and 10 minutes. I woke up feeling like I really didn’t want to go but got up and figured I would rather ski than sit at home for 5 days. The drive was ok, I was tired but managed. Daytime anxiety was moderate.
First night sleeping in the hotel was rough and usually was prior to insomnia. I logged about 3 hours .
Second night I slept much better with 6 hours and 40 minutes. That afternoon I was just so tired that I laid down for 30-40 minutes just wanting to lay down and didn’t care if I slept or not and actually napped!. I was told I snored so that means I was asleep. I actually fell asleep again around 10PM for a few minutes which is usually a big no no. I was worried my night would be shot because of the late power nap but turns out I slept 6:40 minutes and slept in an extra 30 minutes.
Third night I slept 7 hours and 20 minutes. Amazing
Fourth night I slept 7 hours and 15 minutes. Amazing.
Last night was back at home and was down to 5 hours and 10 minutes with more frustration with falling asleep, staying asleep and waking up early. Wasn’t horrible but a slip in the wrong direction.
The long story short is a vacation can be a good thing. There was anxiety prior but knew I must overcome it and need to live my life. The first night or two were crap but not crappier than at home. The good nights were great. I didn’t have to worry about work, life or alarm clock. The bed was comfy and going back to my bed really is making me consider getting a topper to add a bit more comfort.
I was hoping that these few days would break the cycle. The one take away that I’ve learned before and applied was not to worry. I started to feel like who cares if I go to bed at this time or if I wake up an hour or two early. Because I knew the day was just skiing, I felt like if I could just lay there I would be happy and not only that, fell back asleep.
Not trying seems to work quite well. Just hard to apply even though it sounds super easy.
Hi Dragon, here is an excerpt I found. Might explain that us in this boat really can’t deviate much when we are still in the thick of it.
How a chronic insomniac found a radically simple cure for her sleepless nights
What would seem like common-sense coping methods, such as going to bed early, sleeping in on the weekend or catching a quick afternoon nap, are murder on an insomniac’s sleep drive. “Physiologically, these things have sort of the opposite effect on insomnia,” says Carney. In a non-insomniac, the body’s response to one night of poor sleep is to produce excellent, deep, restorative sleep the following night. But for insomniacs, a habit of naps and sleeping in tells the sleep drive that compensatory sleep isn’t needed, which then leads to a pattern of light sleep and multiple awakenings.
@Mac
I guess the million dollar question is if you would have had a similar night if you went to bed at your prescribed time just simply more condensed. Sorry to hear you had a crap night. Mine was on the crappy side of things. Felt like light in and out sleep for the second part of the night. Woke up about an hour before I should have and felt anxious. I am wondering if my cortisol levels are too high. Who knows.
