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Just checking in. I’ve had a few decent weeks of sleep with little complaints. The run was short lived compared to over the summer. All last week I’ve had a lot of REM dreaming but actually I’ve felt pretty damn good and normal. 2 nights ago I had trouble falling asleep and staying asleep. I figured I got maybe 2 hours of sleep in total but my appetite was low and felt anxious. Last night I went to bed at 11 and fell asleep within minutes and was up at 3:30 (4.5 hours). From 3:30 to 7, it was very comfortable but just couldn’t fall back to sleep. Drive in to work, I was drowsy and now at work and time feels so slow. I feel a little nauseous and feel like gagging. Chest and heart feel blah and urge to tense, release, relax and take a nice deep breath is there. Anyway, it’s what I call anxiety day for no reason. I wish I could let my body know that there is no need for alarm and to chill.
I am trying to accept the feelings, talk to it (her name is anxious annie) and know it’s just my body letting me know it feels a threat. It helps but sometimes the persistency is annoying.
Hi Deb,
The past 5 or so days (not counting or logging) have been pretty good. Not much issues falling asleep. I would get up 2 times or so and go to the bathroom and back and lay there and drift back in no time. A few of those days I would wake up about 30 minutes before when I should, but not concerned about that. I just lay there for 15-20 and drift in/out or just get out and start my day a few minutes earlier.
Just trying not making a big deal about it. Having a few bad nights in a row brings me to trying to fix it when it fixes itself. Doing nothing fixes it much faster. I hope everyone else is doing well.
I hear ya about the pills. I was able to and can do it again. I was able to slowly wean down and then when I stopped completely I didn’t notice. Right now my brain won’t shut off, feels alert and the lack of sleep makes my day feel more anxious. It was only a few days ago that I was sleeping without any sleep aids and slept in until 9:30. I am not worried that sleeping in one day threw me off.
Ill get over this hump. I will get back into mindfulness through the day. Observe the moment, how I feel and not judge.
Hi Deb,
I thought I would run this by you. Last night I went to bed at 11:30 and although I was relaxed, I was not sleepy. When a thought about sleep, not sleeping, what time is it etc. I would acknowledge it, not associate any emotion to it and just move on. After 2 hours I still was not feeling sleepy at all, I had the thought that I may be doing it much longer and I do need to work so I ended up taking half a pill at 1:45. Eventually I was out and woke up at about 5:15 am. From 5:15 to 7:00am I just laid there trying to relax. I felt more anxiety in the morning though. I don’t really have issues with onset but lately it’s been onset and maintenance.
I knew there would be ups and downs. I look back to just a few weeks ago when I would feel a little tired and just lay on the carpet with my dog at 9:30 or 10, then accidentally fall asleep for a few minutes and waking up and marching up to bed and fall asleep right away and stay asleep. Or sleeping on a cruise ship while the boat rocks in heavy waves. Waking up and noticing the boat is rocking a lot and just laying there and waking up to the cruise director saying we are docked at port and it’s 9am. Or on a Sunday afternoon lay on the couch and nod off for 20-40 minutes and feel refreshed.
It feels like these waves are genetic/biological and I just have to ride them out and use what I’ve learned to mitigate it as much as possible. This all started about a year ago for me. I mean that it became a problem that it would interfere enough to cause concern.
Since you have more experience with sleep onset, any tips other than do nothing? I used to do nothing and voila! but I guess when my body is more tense and ramped up and not sleepy, it’s just not happening. I started to re-read the sleep book and it’s comforting for sure.
Thank you Daf and Deb. Ill check out Jon Kabat Zinn. I think I should be just doing what I’ve been doing. Relapses are bound to happen. I recall having bad nights as a child, teenager and young adult and I didn’t really think too much about it and muddled along. I really shouldn’t overreact and start changing things like get the blue light blocking glasses, warm bath, journal, stop my morning coffee, bust out the sleepy time tea and only go to the bedroom to change, sleep and sex. All that just made things worse because I would think too much about it.
Many things do help. One thing for example that helped gently paved the way with ACT vs CBT was napping. Sometimes I would feel exhausted and the thought of napping and failure to fall asleep would make things feel awful, however, accepting that I may not nap is ok. I would just lay down and say to myself “lay down for 30 and relax”. Sometimes I would lay there and drifting off would not happen but often it would because there was no pressure. If I do, I do, if I don’t, I don’t. With nightly sleep, I try to do the same. My thought is I’ve allotted a reasonable amount of time to rest. Lay down and relax. With a reasonable sleep drive built up, it happens naturally and quickly.
Hi Deb,
I found some of Borgesbi’s posts. One was her latest update which was positive. I really stopped doing mindfulness and meditation for weeks because I figured I didn’t need to do it before and things are good now (was). But for me I do prefer to do it in the early evening as opposed to right before bed because I am thinking too much about it as a tool to sleep when sleep should be nothing.
I think one technique is to stop struggling and give up. Just let it all go. It’s hard when you are worked up. But if I am too worked up or been in bed way too long I do need to get up and take a chill out period. Most of the time I do stay and let go and fall asleep.
One thing she mentioned that I found interesting and had a hunch but never made a strong correlation was strength training and sleep. I do work out at the gym around 7-8:30PMish and I do feel great but it could be making it worse. I know it’s not all the time but it seems like it does impact sleep. I don’t do crazy amounts but enough that my muscles feel that burn.
Hi Deb! Good to hear from you!
Generally I’ve been doing well. Vacation was fabulous and much needed. Been out and about enjoying summer while it lasts. I am trying to let the current negative/stressful thoughts go. I was good at not worrying about it. If I wake up in the middle of the night, I would get up, go pee and then lay back in bed and sure enough in time I would fall back asleep. Most nights I would have a small thought about having poor sleep but even that wouldn’t ruin the night and I would fall asleep and stay asleep.
I am trying to avoid going back on pills because I know I was and can sleep without them. I just find learning how to relax should be done more out of bed rather in bed. In bed I should already be relaxed. What I found happened was yesterday I felt more edgy during the day and then within a few minutes of being in bed I was quite anxious and I was in bed for hours before falling asleep for what may have been an hour.
I know sleep is natural! It’s just much more difficult to achieve when you are wide awake, wired and knowing the longer you spend in bed, the more frustration that builds. But I guess with ACT, you learn to accept it?
Hello all, (Deb, Daf, Mac, Steve)
I put this thread to the back burner for awhile. For 2+ months I was off any sleep aid especially Zopiclone. I was going to bed when I felt like but almost always within a reasonable time (11-1am). On weekdays waking up roughly when I wanted (7am). Some days 5-10 minutes earlier, sometimes the alarm would wake me up. Weekends would be 7am but sometimes a little later if my body naturally wanted to. I stopped logging my sleep completely. I would watch TV in bed on occasion for 5-30 minutes and turn it off and go to sleep. I would take a nap here and there for 20-60 minutes if my body felt like it. I would have a glass of wine or a beer or for dinner and not worry about it. I went to Greece for 2 weeks and even though I was jet lagged and sleep was an issue as expected, within 2 days I was already getting into the groove. On vacation I would wake up anywhere between 7am and 10am. I returned from vacation and things were still good. I felt normal!. Sure I would have worries about sleep but they quickly faded while laying and relaxing. If I wake up in the middle of the night I would be able to fall back within minutes or maybe 20 minutes without frustration. The most encouraging thing was being able to sleep night after night without sleep aids! Knowing my body is able to sleep like before without any help is encouraging.
I knew there would be bad nights. I mean we all do even the best of us. I’ve been able to cope with poorer nights by not making a big deal and I’ve able to deal with it before. This last Monday I had a bit of issues but again, not anything too bad. Last night however, I felt anxiety creeping in as night got closer. Going to bed I felt too restless, anxious and not sleepy. I did sleep but it was very light, broken and my mind was just all over the place unable to calm down.
As usual, I have no idea what sparked it and hope I don’t spiral out that it stretches for days/weeks. Although I am not very sleepy today, I feel wired, edgy, spacey, less appetite. Feels uncomfortable and crappy. 🙁
Hi Daf,
Yes absolutely. Those with insomnia commonly have sleep state misperception or also now known as paradoxical insomnia. Even if you look at the time every 45 minutes, sometimes 45 minutes feels like 5 and you may have been asleep. The first time I was aware was when I dosed on the bed and my wife was in the room and I got up and felt like I didn’t but she swears I did.
Also I believe you posted something about GABA a few weeks ago. I’ve been supplementing it and since *knock on wood* I’ve been having better nights and more REM in the morning (which is also good for memory and mood). If you have issues with sleep maintenance you could try it. I am still skeptical but it’s been like 2 weeks and so far so good. I take about 350mg about an hour before bed. I don’t “feel” anything but when I wake up in the middle of the night I am more in the zone to dose back.
With SR/SCT it’s actually more like 15-20 minutes get out of bed. My suggestion is go to bed at 12:00am. Lay there and relax. If after what feels like 20-30 minutes if you don’t feel like sleep is approaching or you feel more restless then it’s better to get out of bed and do something else. If it’s been an hour and sleep is not happening then you should definitely get out of bed.
The thing you don’t want to do is routinely stay in bed awake as this creates an association between your bed and wakefulness. Also if you aren’t sleepy then you should not go to bed until you feel sleepy. If you feel tired but wired, meditation or reading in the evening may help get you to a sleepier state.
I am not sure if ISR can help with those who are able to fall asleep but wake up shortly after most likely due to hyperarousal, self monitoring, anxiety. It feels like ISR would “train” and further exacerbate the issue because of falling asleep and waking up so frequently.
I did get the sleeponcue app and although I’ve only tried it for maybe 20 minutes in total so far, the sensitivity or timing feels off. There are times where I would distinctly hear the tone and shake (this could be trial 1 or 2) and ask if I’ve fallen asleep and I would say no because I am still awake and it’s only been a minute or so and say that I’ve fallen asleep. Not sure if there are any tips or suggestions for accuracy.
Steve,
Well last night I didn’t clock watch but I was up in the middle of the night and I believe I slept a bit more until about 5-6am where I got up and laid on the couch for a bit longer near a fan. My AC is out and I slept in a warm room with a fan blowing on me and still felt hot so that is a factor. Hopefully the AC will be reconnected today *crosses fingers*. Besides that I am not sure if I would have had a much better night. Right now my issue is sleep maintenance. Some days/weeks I wake up, pee and go to bed and sleep until morning, other days/weeks I wake up and can’t fall back asleep. The nights I fall back asleep I feel sleepy, other nights I am fatigued and relaxed but not sleepy.
From what I’ve read the protocol is sleep hygiene of course, no napping or limit it to 10-20 mins max, go to bed when sleepy, a reasonably short sleep window and SC if you find you can’t get back to bed in about 20 minutes.
I just don’t know. When I am on a roll I can wake up, pee and think “I wonder if Ill be able to fall back asleep” and just pass right out anyway.
On the itunes store there are a few more reviews. I am sure this isn’t as comprehensive as a lab. The issue is finding a lab and out of pocket cost if not covered (probably $1000+). Even if there were a lab down the street I couldn’t afford it. The other option is Thim device at $199AUD. The app Ill probably try out and let you know. The other advantage is that this can be done at home vs 24 hours in a clinic.
I know this thread is very old but there are two at home options:
1. Sleeponcue app for Android and iOS
2. Thim ring $199AUD
For me I deal with mostly sleep maintenance and also early awakenings so I am not sure how much it will help but I may try out the sleeponcue app. It’s cheap.
This could be an alternative to stimulus control. Rather than getting up and reading a book, you could try staying in bed listening to the tone. Then if you fall asleep or not, get out of bed for a few minutes and go back in. The interesting thing is you may not need to do a 24 hour run but rather 2 hours a night for a few days.
Karen, glad to hear things are generally positive for you! I hope the trend continues. I’ve been on a roller coaster and not sure how to prevent it from going off the rails. I’ve had stretches of 5-6 weeks of 6+ hours average of sleep and no stimulus control needed and then now up and down like a yo-yo. Last night I slept 2-3 hours or so and couldn’t get back to sleep. The lack of AC and a hot house didn’t help. Trying to stay positive. In bed I feel relaxed but as soon as I start to drop off I feel like I am aware and then wake up alert. I wish there were a technique I can focus on that will help address that. The only thing that works is being exhausted and hope for the best.
It is good to hear it’s working. CBT-I has helped with my beliefs about sleep and keep my sleep structured but I feel like I’ve been sleeping less although probably deeper and of better quality.
