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Hi heanja,
There is a huge amount of potential symptoms and causes (whole diagnostic manuals have been written about it).
Your first step should perhaps be to identify a self-diagnosing questionnaire through the web, to help you define your insomnia problem.
Hi Helen,
You seem to be suggesting that 'bad sleep' does not make you tired.
This is quite possible, since not every-one needs the same amount of sleep.
If that really is your situation, don't bother about it. There is no reason to force yourself into conforming to what is considered 'normal'.
If it is not, you're absolutely right to be wary of sleeping medication: try everyting else before falling into that trap.
'insommom' wrote:My daughter just went between 36-40 hours without sleep. And then slept less than 8 hours. I'm concerned the damage this does to the body and the brain.
My personal experience might help take away your concern.
In a few exceptional situations during my life, I have been awake and working for 36 hours in one go.
My experience after making such hours was, that recovery was complete. I remember I slept 11-12 hours and noted some temp bad effect during the day after but no bad effects at all after that.
This is especailly true when you are young. With age, you need longer recovery time, but still not lasting effects to be expected (of course it is better to avoid disturbing your biological clock, if possible).
Hi Leo,
It sounds like you are still going through real difficult times.
Insomenia and feeling depressed can have mutual effects, creating the famous vicious circle.
I know it is hard to do, but in my experience it is best to give up resistance against not sleeping; try to kind of accept the situation and find ways to work around it (which does not imply to give up working on improvement).
What helped me survive my ongoing insomnia was, to learn how to meditate or do autogenic training. At night it can help relax your body and put your mind at rest. During the day it can help to get new energy, even after a poor night of sleep.
I guess you have been seeking professional help to improve the mental state?
In any case, if you feel bad at night, try to realise that the 'dark hours' tend to make things look worse than they are; that things will look less gloomy once the next day is there.
Fred
Hi BobxT,,
Meanwhile, I received the following reply from Philips Australia, clarifying the status of the Sleepwave product:
QUOTE Unfortunately the Sleepwave product is not currently available. The product was available in 2010 as part of a pilot program here in Australia to gain some practical experience using the product with patients. As a result of that program, the company is now doing further research and development of the product. UNQUOTE
In a 2nd mail it was indicated that the Sleepwave accessories (ear spirals, a consumable product) would now be hard to get.
So, I guess we will just have to wait for results from this next research step.
The scientific paper I referred to is 'Rocking syncrhonizes brain waves' by Laurence Bayer and a couple of co-authors. You will find it through the following link:
http://labnic.unige.ch/nic/papers/rocking_CB_2011.pdf
Fred
'BobxT' wrote:Hi dutchsailor,
I would be very interested in any info you can find out on the Sleepwave product. And in particular the scientific survey into 'rocking'.
Personally, I am a bit dubious on the Philips brand after a two people I know went through the testing procedure at Philips' own Sleep Centers. Here in Melbourne Australia, these centers only promote their own CPAP machines as a closed shop approach.
In both of the people I mentioned, after being dissatisfied and listening to me, they both broke away and tried Resmed S9 Cpap systems and are now happily using the S9 exclusively.
I swapped with one of them my S9 (we were both on the same pressure setting) and it was the best nights sleep for him (after six weeks CPAP for him) and the worst night's sleep for me in my three and a half years of CPAP use. I could not wait to get my own S9 back again.
I told my Sleep Specialist and he said he was not surprised. He had come to that opinion himself as he tries all CPAP systems the reps loan him. But he is not permitted to push any partucular product (here in Australia).
Regards,
BobxT
Hi Bob,
You are hinting at mixed experiences with the Philips Sleeping Laboratory. I am sure they are knowledgeable professionals. Despite this, their diagnosis would always require a second, independent opinion, before embarking on costly, time-consuming therapies. Complicated problems —such as insomnia- require not only highly specialised knowledge, but also a multidisciplinary view and independence. Since this is not the way we have organised our world, we ourselves as the insomnia sufferers need to set your own course. It is good to put trust in your specialist, but one must not be blind to his constraints, perhaps even interests.
If we surrender to diagnosis of any kind, we should be aware of all the potential constraints and dependencies (commercial, professional, etc.) A nice example of tunnel view you can find at http://www.insomnialand.com/blog/?s=ekirch . In 2005 historian Ekirch published evidence about the normality of sleeping in two steps (see ). It took the community of specialised sleeping docs quite a while before becoming aware of this (not being used to look outside the boundary of their own profession). Actually, still few of them know now; most still seem to be ‘asleep’.
We must pay even more attention, if our diagnosing specialist has any direct commercial interest, or if he is specialised in e.g. applying medicine.
What strikes me about your story is the initial misdiagnosis, not recognising that depression can be a cause as well as an effect of insomnia. I keep finding it shocking to detect such a lack of scientific, rigorous thinking, with many professionals in the medical profession. So, what I try to do is placing my own practical experiences in a wider, scientific perspective. These days through the Internet, one can trace lots of scientific papers. This background knowledge allows me to ask my doctors the right question, helping them overcome their own constraints and taking a shared responsibility for the process. I will try to post the articles I found about ‘rocking’ to sleep (cannot attach to this reply, so have to find another route). One article seems fully independent, the others were published in a Philips magazine so should be interpreted with a bit more care.
Meanwhile, on the Philips Sleepwave device, I found out that Philips has no current plans to introduce this on the European market or, I belief, anywhere outside Australia. It might be an indication, that somehow it was not terribly successful, either as a therapy or commercially. Since I’d like to test one anyway, I am in the process of trying to import a Sleepwave from Australia myself. Should you want to get rid of yours, it might be an opportunity to share the cost with me. Trusting your Sleepwave is functioning the way it should, I’d have no problem buying it second hand from you. Or is yours a beta-version, which was later improved on the basis of field tests?
Meanwhile, what you could still try is: sit in a chair and see if the device will rock you to sleep in that position.
Best regards,
Fred
'Martin' wrote:Welcome to the forums, Fred – it's always encouraging when 'insomnia veterans' join us to share their experience and expertise! I briefly covered the Sleepwave on the Insomnia Land blog in July 2010:
http://www.insomnial…ep-like-a-baby/
That being said, I am glad you mentioned it as it prompted Bob to share his experience with the product – I think unbiased, real reviews are extremely hard to come by these days, so now I think we at least have a taste of how it worked for at least one genuine insomniac.
Are you still actively sailing? What kind of medical advice or non-pharma techniques have you tried to combat your insomnia? Has anything proved to be effective, even minimally?
Hi Martin,
Yes, I am still actively sailing, except that my boat has been in maintenance for quite a while now (osmosis). I plan to have it back in the water by May.
You're asking what I have tried so far? Be prepared for a long list …. In terms of therapeutic approaches:
– Hypno-therapy and autogenic training (to relax)
– Acupuncture, Iridology and homeopathy, Total Body Modification
– Transcendental meditation and yoga
– All known home remedies, including CD with calming sea or forest sounds
– Sleeping Training, Sleep deprivation, Phase Shift
– Convential Psy Therapy while improving sleep hygiene
– 3 months strict regularity (Chopra book): 22.30 hours in, 7.00 am out, no evening work, instead after 20.00. only pure relaxing activity, eg evening sauna visit
– Foot massage and chinese herbs
– Very strict diet for five months for supposed Leaking Gut Syndrome: gluten free, lactose free, no caffeine, etc
– EMDR (for re-processing traumatic experience)
Meanwhile, I also had several sleep registrations, which confirmed that there is no physical cause in my case; also that my first 3-4 hours of sleep are of very good quality. .
The above list of tried therapies is long, because I really did not want to give in to medication, that being a very temporarily solution as we all know. However, none of all this has done a thing for my sleeping problem. We have to realise though that that is quite exceptional, since many of these things would surely help other people.
So, I the end I had to fall back on medication. Over time I have been using:
– 5 mg Halcion (long ago)
– Tryptophan & Melatonin (natural substances, short experiments, no effect)
– Flurazepam and Temazapam (these worked for a while)
– Seroxat (during 3 months, no effect at all, also no negative effects when stopped)
– Zolpidem (Stilnoc) 10 mg, taken immediately after waking up around 3.00 / 4.00 am, up to five working days per week (to prevent eroding effectiveness; this did the job quite well; but of course the two weekend days were a nasty contrast)
– Zolpidem 5 mg seven days a week, immediately after awakening, combined with two : ahead of going to sleep a dose of 80mg 5-http and melatonin 5mg (this combi has worked reasonably well for five years or so)
– attempt to replace the Zopidem by the natural Passion Flora, did nothing for me
– attempt to change Zolpidem for Temazepan (10 mg), to see whether this works better after the Zolpidem no longer did the job. No effect on me at all.
[url=””]Undo edits[/url]So, now I am back to square zero and in search for a fresh approach. I might try the Sleepwave, if I can lay my hands on one. Why not? But otherwise, the only sustainable option seems to be to sleep in two shifts (which works very well for me). In this respect, I find the publications telling that this is the traditional, natural sleeping pattern for human beings a great disdcovery. The serious challenge of course being: can one really live so much out of sync with the rest of the world?
Cheers, Fred
[url=””]Undo edits[/url]
'BobxT' wrote:Hi,
Until recently, I was using the SleepWave every night.
I have a history of adapting to changing conditions and drugs.
The SleepWave is no different because it seems to have ceased having a noticeable effect.
Not that it had quite the effect that my sleep Doctor informed me of.
Most of his patients reported the rocking motion.
For me I could never feel that apparent motion except if I was standing or walking around the house.
Yes, I know you are not supposed to do that. But it was the only way I could tell that it was working.
My Doctor said it seemed to not work in various degrees for about 20% of his patients.
He said he and most of his staff had tried it and it seemed to work as advertised.
As soon as I lay down, all apparent rocking motion ceased. As I was required during the beta testing here in Australia, to complete a month long diary, I saw that I enjoyed on average an extra hour per night of sleep.
If I stopped using it, I lost that extra hour.
Recently, I have given it up. Perhaps in a couple of months I will try it again and see what happens.
I am beginning to wonder though, whether it is still being serviced by Philips.
The SleepWave Web site has been Down for Maintenance for about 6 weeks.
HTH,
BobxT
Hi Bob,
Thanks; this is very useful information for me.
I am attempting to get an answer from Philips about the status of the Sleepwave, especially when it would be introduced in other (European) countries.
Should I receive a useful answer one of these days, I will inform you about it. Then at least you will have some indication what is happening to the product. I also noted that the weblink is down.
I did manage to find some scientific survey into 'rocking', even vendor-independent as far as I can tell. Should you want it, I could make that accesable as well.
Cheers, Fred
Hi Alli,
Our insomnia histories seem to be somewhat similar. I am 61 years old and have been suffering from it over 35 years (see my own intro of this morning).
I have delayed using any drugs for the first 20 years of the insomnia period, but I finally had to give in.
Since last summer, I have also reached the point where medication is no longer effective. Rather nasty, as you will experience as well.
The survival strategies I found in the course of many years:
– adapt working time to sleeping pattern (not recommended for the average community member, really use it only as a last resort)
– use transcedental meditation during the day, when getting too tired (takes 20-25 minutes en helps you through the next 6-10 hours)
– when at home, sit in my whirlpool (putting on gentle air bubbles, not the waterstreams) and have a good rest during the day; some say it is dangerous since it seems you won't notice when moving underwater while asleep, so make sure that is unlikely to happen
I know: survival is not the same as solution. But it is the next-best thing, while keeping on the watch for new insights.
Cheers, Fred
Hi Bob,
I just joined the community and am getting to know it a bit, by reading through the intro's.
In mine, I included a question on the Sleepwave device you are referring to. What are your experiences with it? Is it any use, worth the price?
It sounds like you have several causes for insomnia, bit more complicated then most. It would be good to tackle the weight problem, as you are suggesting.
For the heat problem, I could recommend you move to Holland… (until climate change takes over here)
Rgrds Fred
