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Daf, thanks so much for the time you took in the interview and your posts here—and for your honesty. I don’t post much here because I often feel like a failure in that I improved remarkably within a few weeks but didn’t sustain it to the point where it is consistent. My experience is much like yours, except that I only sleep in bed. My sleep window was 5.5 hours—which wasn’t a restriction at all because when I started CBTI I had as many nil nights as you and never got more than about 4, so averaged about 3 hours. Sleeping 5.5 hours was my wildest dream—one that I never thought would happen—until it did, about a few weeks in. By the end of the eight weeks I was sleeping often 7 hours—which as long as I’ve ever slept. Never been an 8 hour sleeper. Always functioned well on 6 to 7. I wouldn’t say I’m a deep sleeper, but the sleep has seemed restorative. And I’ve long been waking up several times during the night to use the bathroom (65 yo bladder).
Like you, I can function well on 6 hours sleep. And after a nil night I do fall asleep the next night—at least eventually. It’s not like I drag myself out of bed after a nil night (as I possibly had last night—I’m positive it was 0 to 2 hours—after a couple of months not having this) or have difficulty functioning the next day. My problem is that I don’t often get any tangible signs of sleepiness. I get a head nod while reading about once every 3 weeks. Otherwise just some yawns and my brain slowing down every so slightly. Tonight after sleeping from 4 to 6 am, if that, I easily won’t be sleepy until midnight. And although I’d rather sleep from 10:30 to 5:30 or 11:30 to 5:30 or 6:30, I’d be happy enough if I could just do from about midnight to 6 if I can fall asleep quickly. I honestly don’t think my sleep drive builds up as quickly as most people’s even though I am active. I don’t seem to be on the 16 or even 17 hour plan.
Because I’m retired I don’t set an alarm but always wake up between 5 and 6:30, regardless of what time I go to bed. I honestly didn’t think it mattered if I sometimes got 6.5 0r 7 hours sleep instead of the 6—seems close enough to throw the whole thing off, but my nil to two hour night last night did follow a 6.5 to 7 hour the night before (most people would laugh at us thinking that 6.5 to 7 hours is a long sleep!), so who knows? But your post helped me to not view it as a failure, but just a hiccup.
I’m fortunate to not feel much different or even tired after a limited night and I worry almost not at all any longer about health implications of low sleep. If I should get sick in the future I will never know whether I would have gotten sick anyway, as plenty of people do who sleep 8+ hours consistently.
My biggest success story is getting over the anxiety and panic about not sleeping. I can go to bed, cautiously optimistic about sleep but also knowing and accepting that I might not fall asleep—and that’s okay too. So last night I started doing strict CBTI at midnight (except that I didn’t really feel sleepy, but I seldom do—just yawned some, so thought I’d try). I don’t really mind popping out of bed every 20 minutes and going to the sunroom to listen to a podcast or reading and then trying again after 20 minutes. But when 2 am came and I hadn’t fallen asleep and wasn’t feeling sleepy, I am now able to switch to ACT because at that point I accept the fact that sleep isn’t coming and start to get a little bored after just lying on the couch, so then can lie in bed calmly and just enjoy that I’m not asleep but I’m still resting and in bed. I think I can just do this for about 2 hours before getting ancy (a big improvement—at one point I’d get up after 2 minutes because I was having so much anxiety) so it’s possible I fell asleep for a couple of hours between 2 to 4 last night.
And I so agree with you about Jon Kabat Zinn. His approach to secular mindfulness was cutting edge and so helpful. There’s a free oline free MBSR course that simulates his 8 week course developed for hospitals and pain patients, so after I completed my CBTI program I went on to that to better practice ACT.
Yay–this thread is getting active again, so I want to play with the cool kids who understand how difficult this is. Supposedly all people have a less than stellar night every once in a while, but we have really bad nights all too often (and I do know people who always sleep well–or at least they seem to spend time in bed and can’t be roused easily—some don’t seem very refreshed when they wake up or throughout the day).
I completed Martin’s course exactly a week ago. I went from averaging about 3 hours a night, with totally sleepless nights, to 6 and no sleepless nights. I wasn’t even really scared that the insomnia would return. And for the the three days that followed, I was sleeping 7 hours—exactly what I did pre-insomnia. Falling asleep right away (my problem has been sleep inset).
Happy days, or I should say, nights–until the fourth night. Only got 4 hours of sleep. Not sure why—I know we are not supposed to analyze stuff too much. I had a gynecologist visit that I was dreading—but surely that couldn’t have prevented me from falling asleep by 11, as I’ve been doing—took until 1. We’re always told that it’s hyperarousal that’s conditioned around sleep, but I had all these successful days previously, so it was definitely not hyperarousal about sleep. If not looking forward to a doctor’s visit or other event caused sleep problems, many more people would be insomniacs!
So although I began the week with the wonderful 7 hour sleep, this week after graduation from Martin’s program I am back to an average of 3 hours a night. One totally sleepless night, so then I was able to sleep 6.5 hours the next night. But yesterday was only less than 2 hours, and that was after finally doing an hour of yoga, from 3 to 4 am (then slept 4 to 6 am).
I found the SR easy and wasn’t anxious about my 5.5 window (by the end of the program, it was upped to 6.5) because it’s not like I was really being restricted. 5.5 was a distant goal, like twice of what I was getting. So technically I’m not sure how SR could have worked for me since it wasn’t restricting my sleep at all, but did keep me from trying to go to bed before 12:30. SC is fine for me–would rather get out of bed and read or listen to a podcast than lie in bed.
By week 3 I could feel that I was less anxious about walking back to the bedroom and accepted (was grateful!) for even 4 hours sleep. And with the progress I made I was fully committed to doing the sleep window—I ended with a sleep window of 11:30 pm, but with the buffer zone beginning at 10:30, that was fine and I was going to bed soon after the buffer zone started—and doing SC if I ever needed it.
But now I have hyperarousal and anxiety so extreme that it can feel like a panic attack (never had anything like this before and I’m 65!). All this afternoon I was so bad, just dreading tonight, that I took my two remaining supplements that never worked for sleep, but which are supposedly calming (theanine and lemon balm)–and then had 2 ounces of wine. I’ve been a nondrinker my entire life, but I just had to break the anxiety loop, not even so much to sleep tonight, but just not to lose my mind.
It’s crazy. I do so much mindful stuff. Yoga. Meditation. Qi gong. Read Buddhist teachings. And yet I can’t get past this anxiety about bed, even though I did a week ago, and the weeks before that.
It’s not that I need 8 hours sleep. I can do well with 6 since my sleep is pretty restorative once I fall asleep. But I just don’t feel sleepy—so how can I fall asleep when I’m not sleepy at 12 am and 2 am? I doze off for 5 minutes around 8:30 when watching TV, and can get a couple microsleeps during the afternoon, but at night it’s not that I am wired but tired. I don’t feel physically tired and don’t even feel perceptibly wired most of the time.
I was so excited a couple of weeks ago when I got some head nods and book drops when reading during my buffer zone, because I haven’t experienced them in the nine months of this insomnia. But no more head nods or book drops. Lately I haven’t even had any heaviness behind my eyes or difficulty concentrating on reading. But my eyes pay for it come the following morning when I read all night—my eyes are dry anyway, but being open 24/7 and using them for all that reading dries them out even more.
It’s so rough! So does CBTI work? Jury is still out for me. It certainly seemed that something helped, but it wasn’t sustained, even with not changing anything after graduation.
Now I’ve thoroughly depressed myself. But hey, at least all of us are survivors. Maybe we should have ribbons like other diseases and health issues have. What color would you like? 🙂
Yup, sorry, Martin. They increased mortality risk = decreased life span. (When I was getting 0 to 2 hours sleep nightly, I would have blamed the typo on that—with 5 to 7 hours sleep, I have to admit I was going too fast and being careless!).
To be honest the first week I had two nights of zero sleep—but I did get through the day and was rewarded with 6 hours of sleep the following night each time. It’s not fun, but doable. And getting out of bed when not sleeping became actually enjoyable for me—much better than lying in bed awake.
Gill, yes, absolutely. It’s the best money I ever spent! After three weeks of working with Martin I started to experience some changes and then started to sleep better and longer and anxiety diminished. Am now sleeping six to seven hours a night! Be prepared for some rough times first couple of weeks, but Martin will be there for you every step of the way.
Wow, Slarus—24/7 caretaking plus insomnia—not an easy combination. But you seem to have a really good attitude. I can see where your caretaking duties would make you tired but wired and place you in a constantly vigilant state. But the SC and SR will help you get more restorative sleep in a compressed frame, so while it may be technically less sleep, it’s better sleep. It’s kind of like eating nuts, which I do daily. Many people avoid them because they are high in calories and fat (albeit good fat). But they are nutrient dense, so it’s easy to watch my portion and be satisfied.
I couldn’t admit this anywhere else because it’s so irrational, but when I posted that I was a bit fearful that I would jinx myself if I posted about my success I wasn’t kidding. But it does seem that this blessed new pattern is here to stay (at least until a challenging night comes along and at that point it will be just one night and not “I can’t take another no/low sleep night again.”
Last night I got 7 hours! I truly can’t tell a difference between 6 and 7. I know some of you can, but I don’t perceive a real advantage. But the 7 hours shows me once and for all that I don’t have a hormonal/neurochemical imbalance. I don’t even have a psychological imbalance where I need to do sleep rituals any more! Freedom and peace of mind is so restorative—for me, that is the true prize and not 8 hours sleep!
Thanks for linking to the meta-analysis review, Martin. So not only was there no difference in mortality between those with insomnia and those without—but it was hypnotic meds that decreased mortality, not the insomnia itself. I am thankful to have had your help and gone with CBTI instead of resigning myself to a lifetime of pills. Acceptance is a good thing when it comes to dealing with the quirks and challenges of our sleep issues, but not when it comes to taking pills that aren’t all that effective, not even giving true restorative sleep or enabling many of us to fall/stay asleep, make us feel lousy the next day even if we did get some sleep, and now as it turns out, shortens our life span!
Daf, looks like you are doing much better. Yes, it would be nice to have a guaranteed 5.5 hours of sleep every night, but as long as we average that and don’t have m/any nights back to back of no sleep, seems like we can manage. Accepting reality relating to sleep as well as anything else in our lives gives more peace and frees up our energy to tackle issues that we can more readily solve.
Slarus, perhaps you would have fallen asleep in bed at the same time you fell asleep in the recliner had you been in bed. That’s one of the negatives of CBT’s stimulus control—while it’s training us to view bed as the place we sleep it can prevent us at first from getting back to the bed to sleep. Eventually you will get to the point where there aren’t as many microsleeps that instantly put you to sleep and you will recognize signs of developing sleepiness.
You ask what this limited sleep may be doing to our brains, hearts, and other vital organs. I worried so much about this—even bought some stupid supplements that were supposed to help ward off dementia! But I’m happy to report that in my nine months of very little sleep, there were no detrimental effects other than some fatigue and dry eyes from keeping my eyes open for 40 hours! Lab tests came back normal. If someone next to me in yoga sniffled I cringed, sure that I would come down with a cold because my immune system must be so out of whack after all those terrible nights. Never even got a cold this winter!
Of course it’s possible that I will experience medical issues in the future, even now that I am sleeping 6+ hours a night. At that point I won’t ever know if it the lack of sleep led up t the medical problem or whether it was unrelated. I’ve never been 65 before so I don’t know what to look for, what to expect—I just know that I can only take it one day at a time. And in some ways I feel better than before all this happened–may be sleeping better than even before the insomnia, now know what’s important, am more grateful than ever for some energy and feeling good.
Slarus, happy belated birthday. I’m glad you got that birthday gift of 6 hours of sleep. A lot of people would think that isn’t nearly enough, but for those of us who were surviving on much less, it’s a miracle.
Deb, sounds like you got yourself back on track pretty quickly the second time, so that’s got to be pretty reassuring that you now have the knowledge and skills to do so whenever there is a hiccup.
Hi everyone,
I’ve not posted much, even though I’ve been doing Martin’s program for the past seven weeks. First couple of weeks I didn’t even want to post. I was so miserable, not so much because of the sleep window (which at 5.5 hours was twice as long as I was averaging over the last nine months, with totally sleepless nights, occasionally four to five hours, and usually just a couple) but because I was sure I wouldn’t make any progress. I never felt sleepy, so staying up until 12:30 wasn’t too much of an issue. Even stimulus control wasn’t bad—anything beats lying in bed for hours. But I didn’t see how the program could work for me if I was incapable of feeling sleepy. And it seemed like so many of you had problems which were different from mine—getting more sleep than me but still feeling lousy, able to fall asleep but then not stay asleep. Or having poor quality sleep.
But I persevered with Martin’s help (couldn’t have done it without him—also Daniel Erichsen). Stopped all pills and supplements (which never worked anyway). And in the third week I had reason to feel optimistic because I experienced my head nodding and book dropping when reading while waiting for my sleep window—a true sign of sleepiness that I haven’t experienced for 9 months! And I fell asleep in 5 minutes (faster than pre-insomnia days!).
This is continuing. Had one or two low sleep nights of 1.5 hours and 4 hours, but no totally sleepless nights since. Getting anywhere from 5 to 7 hours. Averaging 6 may not sound a lot to some of you, but it’s double of what I am getting. I don’t want/need to strive for me. I do fine on 6 hours.
I may have a sleepless night in the future, but I think I will handle it better since I now know I can get back on track—and will be more aware of when anxiety is overtaking me. I honestly didn’t realize I had all this hyperarousal since I appear to be an outwardly calm person who does lots of meditation and yoga, but somehow the mindfulness and equanimity weren’t carrying over into the bedroom at bedtime. I had some short-lived panic attacks before the CBTI—first time in 65 years—crazy that the prospect of sleep (or even no sleep) caused it.
I’ve held off writing this because I still have a few irrational beliefs and almost felt I could jinx myself by doing so—but at least I am recognizing it as irrational and don’t want to give in to it, so I am instead embracing the new-found calm and strength I am enjoying and trying to show you that even a hard-core case like me can improve and liver her life again, feeling happy and healthy…
Hi there, I don’t have any suggestions per se since I haven’t made much (okay, let’s be honest)—any!) progress in the nine months I’ve had insomnia. Like you, my biggest problem is not getting sleepy. I also have found that doing mindless activities don’t make me sleepy. There’s a podcast called Sleep With Me where a guy rambles on for an hour in a monotone, telling long-winded stories. I get bored—but that’s not sleepy! Yesterday, even after a week of three hour a night sleep, I couldn’t fall asleep at all. Was up the entire night. Didn’t have an urge to even take an afternoon nap, although I did fall into a microsleep for a few seconds.
Unlike you, Temezepam didn’t make me sleepy, nor do the sedating antidepressants. For years Benadryl caused sleepiness; not any more. And I’ve tried every supplement. I’m now trying CBTI.
Yup, it does sound like yours has a genetic componenet—but it’s not the fatal familial thing, at least, since you have survived for so long. I am encouraged reading about you dealing with it for so many years. You talk about changes in your brain, but you certainly seem sharp and articulate to me, more so than any other 90 yo I’ve “known.” I’m just hoping my brain can stay intact like yours (I’m 65).
I went to a sleep doctor and was just told to do a sleep study. First of all, I’ve never been someone who easily falls asleep in strange places. I’m quite sure I’d be awake all night in a sleep lab. I’d need to be drugged quite heavily. The doctor suggested that I could have restless legs (not likely–my cat wouldn’t cuddle all night, my husband would tell me, and I’m self aware enough with all the yoga and meditation I do to know) or sleep apnea. No way! When I do sleep, for even just five hours, it’s very restorative sleep. But I just can’t get those five hours easily or without attempting to drug myself and take supplements, which makes me feel worse the next day with a hangover.
It would be wonderful if you could participate in some sleep studies, but I’m not sure there is that much pure research—just a couple of projects investigating new sleep meds:
https://www.centerwatch.com/clinical-trials/listings/condition/169/sleep-disorders/
And some studies may exclude you just due to your age. I know how that goes. My internist said that sleep just changes/gets bad as we age. Change, yes. Severe soul-crushing, mind-numbing, body-fatiguing insomnia? No. It’s not just a function of age. Too many over 60s sleep just fine, even though it’s known that a 70 yo only has 25% of the melatonin of someone in their 20s. Years from now there may be ways to test for neurotransmitters like GABA and adensoine—and treat any deficits, but we are definitely not there yet.
As I said, I can’t offer you any concrete help, just wanted to reach out and have you feel not quite so alone as the majority of the world enjoys restful nights of sleep. You’ve given me hope that as Martin says, people can be healthy mentally and physically on broken/limited sleep.
Thanks for those links, Martin. They do help me calm down about this.
I do realize that I might be a night owl—it’s just strange since for 64 years I never stayed up past midnight, even for fun, and went to bed around 10:30 every night. And as I’ve done my entire life, I still wake up around 6 am, no later than 7, regardless of how much (or little) sleep I’ve had.
I have been all over the place taking drugs and supplements and trying CBTI for very short periods (a few days), ACT for a week, and then trying to combine the ACT and CBTI (like reading in bed for an hour, then trying to sleep, getting up after an hour, reading, and then trying again). Sleep times would vary from 11 pm to 1 am. Sometimes I could fall asleep within 20 minutes, Usually if it doesn’t happen within 20 minutes it’s not going to happen for hours later. And I was unfortunately doing the contingent meds thing you discussed in one of your videos—trying to sleep without meds and then giving up and taking them at 1 am, which made me groggy the next day (antidepressants) and further cemented my perception of not being able to sleep without them.
Two nights ago I actually read some articles about insomnia and watched some of your videos. It helped calm some of my anxiety. So I decided to see how I would do just taking melatonin and nothing else. I resolved that when my husband turned out the light at 11 after we read in bed from 10 to 11 that I would go into another room and read/listen to podcasts and delay my sleep because as usual I didn’t feel sleepy. But since the light was out I just wanted ti see what would happen if I laid my head down, sure that I wouldn’t fall asleep since I didn’t feel sleepy. To my surprise, I fell asleep in what I judge to be 10 minutes and stayed asleep for 7 hours! That was a first without anything other than melatonin.
Feeling that I was on the road to recovery, I tried to do the same the next night but had a feeling I wouldn’t fall asleep since I not only didn’t feel sleepy but felt more alert and less tired than I had the night before, after a week of three to four hour sleep. Nothing. So I read and listened to podcasts in another room until 12:30. Still not sleepy. Tried again every half hour. Finally fell asleep listening to a podcast from 3 to 5. Went back to bed but couldn’t fall back to sleep and got up at 6.
I’m ready to devote myself to CBTI. I’ll do a window of 12:30 to 6. And it might be that I will fall asleep within 20 minutes after 2 hours of sleep the night before. But then if I get 5 or more hours of sleep it will be likely that I won’t get sleepy until 3 the next night. It’s like my body doesn’t want consistent sleep night after night within each 24 hour period. I actually noticed this before the insomnia, seeing that a “good” night of 7 hour very sound sleep would be followed by 5ish hours of not so sound sleep the next night. And right before the insomnia happened I noticed I was no longer able to fall asleep for the afternoon nap I’ve been taking for years—becoming one of the few 64 year olds who doesn’t nap in the afternoon (and who only falls asleep for a minute in front of the TV set around 9!).
Daf, you seem to have some good genes there—although possibly not good genes for sleep, if there is really such a thing. For a while I took comfort in the fact that other people lived long lives on four hours of sleep. Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher came to mind….and then I remembered that both got Alzheimers! So no more comfort there.
Even before the insomnia happened, I’ve never been a “good” sleeper. Maybe that’s not fair/true. I got enough sleep to have lots of energy, even in my sixties. Six to seven hours, even with several bathroom trips a night, were enough. But I’ve never slept as long or deep as others. As a kid I would wait eagerly for 9 am because my friends didn’t get until then and I wasn’t allowed to call them until then (I would be up at 7). In college I had a roommate who slept so deeply she slept through fire alarms—that would never be me! And I’ve never overslept in my life. Even when I worked and had to use an alarm I never used a snooze button. There would be no way I could fall asleep (or even want to) for 10 minutes knowing I had to get up. And the truth is I’ve always looked forward to getting up and starting my day (not any longer, although I’m glad to escape the bed and to not have to “try” to fall asleep any more).
Thanks. Yeah, I’d say 7 hours is optimal for me (don’t need to be greedy and wish for 8—supposedly 7 hours is the sweet spot anyway!).
So with the Trazadone do you actually get drowsy with it, like nodding off, or do you just go to bed and sleep happens? I know someone who takes a lot of Trazadone every night—like 300+ milligrams! He’s a big guy, but still…
At 65, I have similar sleep issues, although I never crash and oversleep. On a night like last night where I finally got three hours sleep from 4 to 7 a.m. (after trying to go to bed at 11—I thought I was getting sleepy, with my book dropping a couple of times—took two antihistamines at 10, 1 Valerian, 6 mg of melatonin, and some glycine) I am at least 50% likely tonight to sleep “well” which for me is six or seven hours.
When I don’t take anything I never experience sleepiness until 2 or 3 a.m. (and my natural waking time is always 6 or 7). I may get a little sleepy between 2 and 3 pm, as even normal sleepers tend to (but have been refraining from taking naps for the last nine months since this started).
Like you, Daf, I have no stress trigger. Insomnia is my only stressor (retired, same schedule day after day week after week). It just seems that I don’t experience sleepiness/ability to sleep after 16 to 17 hours of being awake. It’s more like 19 to 21 hours! This wouldn’t be so bad if it were true sleep delay syndrome where I went to bed late but then slept seven to eight hours later. I’d be willing to do that—it would mean that I would miss my daily gym classes in the morning, which I love, but I’d be okay with that—if I could just sleep past 7 am!
I finally talked my doctor into running a cortisol test. The results were fine, as expected (like I said, low stress, regular exercise, meditate, etc.) but there are so many other hormones. If this was 50 years from now, there would be a way to test for adenosine and GABA and treat it accordingly.
I think my trigger for the insomnia was staying up two nights in one week when my husband had some medical emergencies and then worrying about his health. But even before this happened, I saw some changes, like I was unable to fall asleep for an afternoon nap. It was a little frustrating since I’ve never been a great sleeper, usually sleeping six hours, so liked to supplement it a 30 to 60 minute nap. And I also noticed that my window of opportunity for sleep was lessening. With most people, they start to get sleepy and progressively get more sleepy. With me, if I didn’t go to bed right after the first signs of sleepiness I would then lose that sleepiness and get my second wind.
