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Thanks for reading my comment and I never asked him if he experienced the stage 1
sleep all he said was that insomnia was a big part of his struggle with stress and anxiety in particular falling into a deep sleep so he most likely did as for what state he is in if you mean location he is in Canada and so am I but he counselled people all over the world through skype and zoom or by phone in person I discovered him along with lots of helpful info on a site calledanxietycentre but the site deals with everything from anxiety,insomnia all the way to addictions and the counsellors and therapists as a requirement have had to went through at least a serious entrenched anxiety disorder as well as being certified as a psychologist or therapist so when you go there you’re dealing with people that have went through the problems instead of simply just studying about them which is helpful.I will admit that I’m doing better but still not getting that deep sleep I need to function,one thing I’ve been doing lately that seems to be helping for getting tired at night is to go out at around 5:00 pm that’s when it gets dark around here and I do my shopping or some errand and I’m gone for about 2 hours when I come back home its time for a shower not to hot but warm and then about shortly after that I begin feeling tired to where I feel like I want to turn off the tv and go to bed and its feels like I could really fall into a deep sleep but haven’t so far just came close but this seems like something to keep up with because at least I’m getting that tired feeling and also once in a while I think its good to have a sleep window of like 6 hours so the next day I’ll have that little bit of boost to help the sleep drive because before when sticking to the strict 5 hour window for months I discovered that it was making me more adrenalized than tired so actually getting more rest or light sleep helps burn off the excess adrenaline which results in feeling more tired so that’s why I’ve extended my sleep window.
I totally agree with you I’m at my wits end with this stupid problem totally lost as to what
todo or how to approach this,my final solution is gonna be talking to the counselor but
I’ve been putting it off because I think its so bad now that even he can’t do anything about it.The whole you’re probably sleeping but think you’re awake is absurd if that were the case I would be waking up refreshed and not with a whole bunch of physical symptoms that are intense I know what its like to get stage 3 sleep you just know when that’s occurred because it changes everything so I don’t know why these experts keep saying this.
The all nighter approach while it made sense in theory ultimately it turned out to be wrong and I wouldn’t recommend it out of safety but now I’m just thinking that acceptance has got to be the way and I know that previously I doubted this strategy but when you think about it all the analyzing is causing nothing but internal tension so that alone could be acting as a barrier or prolonging sleep onset because when thinking last night about before calling my councellor I was getting a little bit of sleep and I know this because I recorded our sessions and in one of them I mention to him that I am sleeping a little so that is a clue as to what was happening before I started getting better and it was most likely from not caring much because I knew working with someone that understood these issues means I’m in good hands because the guy I get sessions with had insomnia and anxiety disorder but overcame it and is now certified as councellor/psychologist so not only does he have the head knowledge you’d get in schooling but has been there that’s important so maybe just the idea that knowing you have someone who completely understands the problem is as important at putting the mind at ease that’s all I can think because every time I’ve ever had sessions with him I’ve gotten better shortly after so I’m gonna be getting some more over the phone because I’m so fed up with all of this.
He doesn’t advocate a sleep window because he sees it as a symptom of another of
stress rather than it being the main problem and that the importance and significance you give it is what makes it stick like if your thoughts are oh my god I’m not gonna sleep tonight or how will I feel tomorrow that is whats making it stick and in order to change the outcome which is the sleeping problem you’d have to change the meaning and significance around sleep so instead of those negative thoughts replace them with different ones like if I don’t sleep deeply I will still get rest and its not a big deal so you’ve changed the meaning and significance around sleep but the problem is just because you tell yourself that doesn’t mean you believe it like you may get it intellectually but you have to own it meaning subconsciously which can take time you can believe something consciously but your subconscious hasn’t caught up yet so its a struggle.Sorry for the long paragraphs I wrote this at late at night.
Going through the same thing right now it feels as if I am getting very shallow sleep
the entire night with maybe some rem but very little and never really falling into stage 3 (Delta),I’ve tried a lot of things like sleep deprivation a smaller window and sleep aids like teas and melatonin but I think what it might be is something you mentioned like the the worry
about the next night along with the obsession over the problem itself is what is probably keeping it going but forgetting about the nightly and daily struggle of this is easier said than done.While its true that my brain waves aren’t being measured I do know that I’m consciously aware all night while only mildly resting because I wouldn’t call it sleep as it has no beneficial effect at all in fact last night I experienced the worst migraine that was so bad that I felt like almost throwing up due to the pain of this and it is caused by not getting restorative sleep at night and waking unrested also a severe migraine like the one I experienced last night is an indicator and blood pressure changes I know this because it happened once before when I was sleep deprived and raced to the hospital and found out.
The all nighter strategy I think it should not be done purposely like you plan on doing it but should be happen naturally like last night I awoke after 3 hours of sleeping very lightly and got up went on the net for a couple of hours and then went back to bed so I had broken sleep schedule at night that is truly how it should be done but no matter what its important to wake at your normal wake up time no matter what I made the mistake of sleeping past that but I want to make it clear that night before the severe migraine I had set out to pull an all nighter by watching tv and doing light chores around the house and I made to 5:30 am and then crashed until like 9:00 am then woke up feeling like complete garbage with a migraine and probably higher than normal blood pressure so I think listening to the body is much more sensible than trying to force something I was just so desperate to make some head way but I was wrong severely depriving your body is dangerous.
Now I’m going to try to just let go and just accept what I am getting at the moment as bad as it is for me and maybe it will result in deeper sleep if not I’m gonna hook up with my
councellor as the last time we spoke my sleep got on tract whether it was from anything he said or not the desired result shortly afterwards occurred so it worth a shot and its not like anyone in the medical system is offering anything in terms of help all they seem to do is throw sleeping pills my way or the other day I called the crisis line during my migraine blood pressure incident and they told me its not a crisis and to not call back so I’m gonna hook up with my guy someone that’s knows my history and I’ve been successful with in the past.You have really good grasp of the problem and are right about not setting times about when to do things something I’m guilty of and that’s where I get confused,so its good to hear you say not to overthink I will heed that advice and listen to my body,I feel wrecked also after pulling an all nighter and the mistake I make is sitting up in bed while I’m awake I believe getting up immediately is more beneficial and it sounds like you doing it right and as for napping I go back into my room because there is a blanket on my window to keep it dark inside which is better.
Everything you said in the second paragraph I identify with 100% especially how at the start of the insomnia you said the sleep drive was there and the naps were easier to pull off agree also now for me like you my naps are just like lying in bed with my eyes closed its unreal and that is why I’ve turns to the all nighter solution but just not doing it every single day when my sleep drive is low that is an indicator that hey maybe an all nighter followed by a nap mid day is something that I need and it sounds like you’re having some success also,I also found it
interesting that you said you don’t put a duration on the naps but make sure their beforenoon that makes sense as well because we’re so deeply conditioned with this insomnia that it even takes our bodies and minds longer than usual to shut off and give in to sleep.Yes same thing here some times I feel as though I’m very sleep deprived and I should be after basically staying up all night but still don’t fall asleep during the nap in the afternoon maybe its the fact that subconsciously I’ve attached an expectation to everything I’m doing not sure but still this is how it went before I got better a lot of days of feeling terrible and a lot of frustrating nights but what I didn’t do is the thing that I’ve heard everyone saying to just accept it and do nothing don’t pay it attention,I can say the times I’ve gotten over this is when it was on my mind not obsessively but I knew that there is a problem and it needs to be fixed,one tip for if you feel you’re doing the correct things to build the sleep drive but not getting the desired results is to maybe find something to get you out of the morning environment for those couple hours before 12:00 pm for me because I’m not working right now I sometimes go to the library at 10:00 am until 12 and read about the insomnia for an hour or so to sort of be like this is the time of day to focus on this and afterwards I’m done with this subject and reading about the topic can bring some comfort early on in my struggle
I would leave the library and come 10 minutes from being home go for the nap and sleep soundly and I’m the last person that would go to the library wasn’t my thing until my brother suggested that I need a pattern change and I did it and still do just not as much but if so I make sure its after a night of being awake for the whole night.Well I’m seeing more success than I did but the problem is the morning after the all
nighter its hard to tell when I should lie down to take a 40 minute nap because even
though I say its an all nighter the truth is I’m still in bed for at least couple of hours at night basically awake but even that still is restful but not the same as getting 5 hours of stage 1, with the all nighter you know you’re tired the next morning but sometimes its hard to know when to sleep even then it amazes me at how bad this problem is but this is still important another part of the problem for me at least is the built up frustration of this persisting for so long and day after day of not being able to release that pent up frustration and I’m mentioning this because there has been a few times where I’ve raged about this and I’ve
been able to sleep and that’s how I’ve come to the conclusion that there has to be a stress
component to this as well and that has to be addressed in some way I just don’t know how.I usually can tell most of the time that I’m just not tired at all and that going to bed is gonna be a total waste of time and whats the point so I end up staying up watching tv on the net and no I don’t struggle with my eyes closing if you’re at that point than you should be close
enough to sleeping I rarely get to that point.I’ve been doing this routine now for at least a couple of weeks and have noticed that my body has a much better chance of sleeping deeper now and almost did during one of the naps so it seems to be working and I’ve been staying up in bed if I feel like nothing is happening in the way of deep sleep this seems to be the correct path but even this takes time to execute.
Another important part of this is to get out of the same everyday pattern like for me wake up and instantly know that the same night has just repeated itself once again and here I am tired and frustrated and too weak and tired to get up and do anything and that is sleeping as well you’d think I’d be able to at least do that but no, so an important thing to do when pulling the all nighter routine is to get up at your required wake up time and do something different than what you usually do so to disassociate yourself from the routine and feeling of failing at sleep and being in that same place every morning I think this is important to get over this cycle.
I’ve been implementing since oct 3rd a strict window of 2:00 am to 7:00 am and while I notice that I’m tired more than before still after being up for say 3 to 4 hours that tiredness is gone and I won’t say I’m wired but definitely not as tired as one would expect so all I can think
of now is to pull an all nighter because honestly that is how it happened last time by just
lying in bed conscious until my wake up time and now I’ve kept a journal of this since the
beginning of October so there is no doubt that even with this strict window the few hours
of light sleep is enough to stop from breaking the cycle of not being able to attain deep sleep so now the answer is so obvious and its an inconvenient one at that but like you said earlier its gonna take something drastic like prolonged wakefulness and that’s just the way it is despite what the sleep experts say about getting at least 5 hours of any quality a night now I know what has to be done, keep in mind I’m also not taking naps in the afternoon or melatonin since the start of October and I’m still not able to fall into a deep sleep that tells me that what I’m dealing with here is some serious deep conditioning that my brain has gotten into that is
hell bent on not allowing me to sleep the way I need to.You tried to stay awake in a hotel bed and fell into a deep sleep the next morning well that’s
a good clue and parallels with what I’m saying.Same here after midnight I’m bored and don’t want to stay up any longer or read,listen
to talk radio or watch movies I’m done and like you jump into bed and even though I’m
aware of what the light sleep is doing somehow I fall for it and wake up not having enough sleep drive.I have a counselor also that I spoke to at the very beginning about this problem and he told me that the reason this sleep issue is sticking around is due to the meaning and significance I’m giving it,so he said to change it by instead of worrying about my sleep and how much I’m gonna get to instead look at going to bed as resting I’m going to rest instead but the fact is at the time I called him I was already at a point of not sleeping at all at night nothing not even light sleep if you can imagine that so I was really worried going to the hospital I thought my life was in danger but shortly after that I began making progress and eventually began to sleep again but I don’t attribute this to anything he said I can say with confidence it was due to being so sleep deprived from the all nighters for like weeks that led to me regaining my ability to sleep again.
It doesn’t have to be in bed just don’t give into the light sleep that’s the idea staying up watching tv I guess would work I’m just remembering the time I successfully turned it around and I stayed in bed awake thinking about how I could still be awake but that was just how it went down that time.
I used to do the stimulus control but I got out of bed maybe once or twice max I would not continue doing it every 20 minutes if not asleep like they recommend so that’s how I just stayed in bed awake or conscious because I was like the SC isn’t working seemed like a waste of time and effort but when I stayed in bed there was no sleep the tired feeling was take hold the next day or days later.
You bring up a very true thing about how hard it is to get up and out of bed while being in the lucid sleep state it is, how I tackled this was going to bed with the intention that I would sleep but after about being in bed for maybe an hour or more I would consciously know that I haven’t reached that deep state and as a result would become a little annoyed and therefore more conscious and alert making easy to come out of the lucid/light sleep state.
The final thing about how the body and mind have to go through those sleep stages in
order to reach the deep sleep(Delta) that is true but the way I knew that I would sleep deeply that night was about 2 hours before bed I can barely keep my head up and just want to stop what I’m doing right then and there and crash so technically at that point I’m in the stage 1 sleep sitting on my couch probably border line stage 2 where as now I’m not getting that at all it takes a little effort to get even into stage 1 after being in bed for like an hour and that’s as good as it gets so it comes down to making yourself tired whatever or how much that takes because its simple if you can’t sleep get past stage 1 then you’re simply not tired enough and I don’t think it comes down to any set hours at night different bodies need a different amount of time awake and it may be an all nighter in bed thinking followed by getting up early and sitting around till noon before the body gives in to real sleep as crazy as that sounds that’s the kind of thing it took for me the last time around and I felt abnormal mentally,physically from the sleep dept for days in a row and it probably takes a lot longer
and more effort than you think to build that drive to overcome the light sleep stage.The light sleep(stage 1) probably persists because this whole thing has been going on for a long time now so you have become less worried in the sense that you’re life is at risk that’s how its been for me I’m less worried about dying from it so therefore there is less significance and importance on getting to the bottom of it now its more of a nuisance not to make it sound like its not a serious problem but subconsciously this pattern has taken hold also because of the not obsessing as much on it you conserve more energy less is being burned in worrying I’m talking extreme worry that was happening at the beginning I think we’ve become more used to this unrefreshing sleep pattern that has set it and that is whats keeping us stuck.
I think the main thing the most important is to change the everyday pattern for instance if you’re getting this light sleep at night make it a priority to recognize it at night when its happening and as hard as it is stay conscious observe what is happening instead of getting the rest that occurs every night I would say notice that your getting this substandard sleep when its happening because back when I had success I would spend the whole night being like whoa I’m not sleeping again what the hell how could this be happening night after night I would be awake in bed all night and only get tired enough to sleep once it was time to wake up and as horrible as it was I built up real sleep drive that would allow me to sleep for 30 minutes the next day, so I would say do whatever you can to get out of this cycle of light sleep don’t accept the light sleep at night notice it complain about it in order to build sleep drive that’s the problem the giving into the little bit of rest that light sleep provides instead stay awake and notice the problem but don’t stress yourself out either have passive acceptance like oh I’m not falling into a deep sleep again and just remind yourself that in that moment of how the light sleep/rest is screwing you over and its better to be conscious.
This is what I’ve got to start implementing right now because I haven’t been able to this
week I’ve been sleeping in late because the rest feels good now but I’ve got to get serious about this like I was months ago and start taking my own advise and one very important thing also about this for me and anyone else is to not put an expectation on anything that you do to get outta the light sleep phase because when you attach an expectation to something you will be dissapointed kinda like a jinx so passive acceptance when implementing these strategies.I know I’m in stage 1 sleep simply because I’m conscious and resting that is not deep sleep
at all and the greatest way to know that I’m not entering deep sleep phase is simply waking up completely exhausted the next day unable to function.I know these so called sleep doctors say that people having insomnia are in fact
sleeping because a machine says so but honestly I think I know my self better than a device does and when I am conscious the entire night and wake up wired and tired I know that no deep sleep has occurred I don’t need a doctor or machine to know that and tbh most of what
they have been saying no offense to them have not worked at all and ironically its been the polar opposite advice that has been working like taking the 30 to 45 minute naps when tired enough to do so the problem as I’ve already described is the light sleep(stage 1) the stage before drifting off that has to be avoided by either staying awake or getting up one or the other personally I prefer staying awake in bed and I don’t believe the identification with not sleeping and the bed I think this has to do with stress and not building enough sleep drive.I’ve had this problem for a little over a year now so at the beginning it wasn’t a light sleep problem and the conditions were actually better to get out of it because I was going days
with out sleep literally and was starting to feel extremely out of touch with reality because of the sleep deprivation but soon I decided to do the afternoon naps and during these I would actually fall asleep and they were only 45 minutes and the fact that I was able to fall asleep during these afternoon naps told my brain that I could sleep deeply again so it became easier to do it at night and eventually it happened but it all started from going weeks without any sleep and implementing the naps in the afternoon.I’ve also tried acceptance just thinking well that mind set will calm everything down and there will be no pressure on me to sleep I’ll just enjoy the light sleep/rest I get but here months later what’s the result oh now I just get light stage 1 sleep so that cannot be the way out of this.
All I can think is about how I overcame this before and that was from already being very
sleep deprived through not sleeping at night and being in bed with constant mind chatter
that won’t let up but now I get into this pattern where I’m in bed and it feels like I’m sleeping but I know I’m not because my mind is still forming thoughts so I’m half awake which gets in the way of building the sleep drive so I honestly feel its just better to stay alert and go with the thoughts even though you’re gonna not get any sleep and feel awful the next day and maybe for weeks but hopefully what will happen is that you become so tired that the body will be able to crash sometime in the day for a short nap telling the brain that you can go into a deep sleep and be able to accomplish this at night that’s what I’m gonna continue to do because right now as it stands I don’t even get tired enough for a afternoon nap now and my sleep window is 2:00 am to 7:00 am that’s how much being in stage 1 sleep for even a few hours can mess up sleep restriction and make it useless.The other thing that worked for me was very strange so during the first few months of going
through so many sleepless nights and obsessing about my sleep I slowly became frustratedand angry to the point where one after going to bed knowing all the stuff I had been doing to combat this and not being able to sleep once again I had reached my boiling point and literally started screaming and threw a tv remote across the room and I started shaking a lot probably due to adrenaline and then I called a crisis line where they told me to calm down and to take a melatonin which I did and miraculously I slept for a full 8 hours deeply that night, I think the frustration built up from dealing with such a stupid thing like this that can put your life on hold is in itself a barrier to sleep that must be addressed/released in some
way.You have trouble falling asleep not staying asleep because I can’t fall asleep only stage 1 if you call that sleep which I don’t.
Have you tried sleep restriction.
One last thing is you said its as if you’re brain has forgotten how to get deep sleep well I’d say that your brain hasn’t but it has gotten used to getting very light sleep and that is the problem and focus less on the rules and more strictly on becoming tired by any means because the truth is if you can’t sleep deeply its because you aren’t tired enough and it may seem like the window you’re observing should be enough but it obviously isn’t and you need less time in bed while at the same letting go completely.
Sounds to me like the two of us are in the identical predicament here literally everything you’ve said is a match to me this has been going on for a year now also the good news though is that today I noticed that at about 12:00 pm when I usually do my nap it was very easy to get tired and I almost fell into a deep sleep within 10 minutes that has not happened to me in months and I made sure that the nap was no more than 30 minutes and I gotta say I feel as though there is real sleep drive now because as I said before the last time this was overcome I felt like how I feel right now and I got to this point by getting up at 6:00 am everyday the change I’ve made is that instead of getting in bed at 1:00 am I simply wait until 2 that is only an hour later but its making a huge difference also my naps in at noon are shorter and I don’t consume any sugar or caffeine whatsoever and now I have real sleep drive so I am starting to slowly turn the corner.
This last week especially my main focus is been building sleep debt through staying awakeand doing things that are enjoyable and that has ensured that I don’t get that light sleep that is counter productive, I haven’t been winding down before bed in the last few days just staying up doing activities and once 2:00 am rolls around I just go in the room and don’t get any of that light sleep only rest for the body so I wake up tired enough to fall into a deep sleep at noon, once I am to the point of being completely exhausted which hopefully is sometime and the next few days instead of doing these activities at night before bed I will wind down and that will be my opportunity to fall into a deep sleep at night and reset my internal clock and be done with this problem and that is how it got resolved last time so maybe this is something to consider its not easy by no means and could take a little while but I truly believe that what’s keeping us stuck at this point is the light sleep that serves no purpose whatsoever and its better to just embrace the wakefulness
and use it to do something in the process making yourself exhausted enough to sleep.
