[Luke45]

Hey, no problem.

Give some thought to the fact that you had zero issues sleeping during your cruise. Delve into why that might be. What was so different? That’s really a huge insight, man.

I will be safe, thanks. You too.

Luke

[Luke45]

PS: But just remember, any changes or adjustments you make are not necessarily going to cause sleep. I know you know that, but on the off chance you’re holding on to HOPE (which = desire, which = wanting control), you’ve gotta divorce yourself from it.
When I mentioned surrender before, I meant it. It’s actually about LOSING hope, but not in the negative sense. More like letting go of it.
The irony is, the more something we want evades us, the more things like hope and desire build up, even subconsciously.
The last man in the foxhole, with the last rounds, often does the incredible because he tosses hope out the window, and frees himself.

Luke

[Luke45]

I am sleeping about 5 hours, mostly uninterrupted, on average each night, which is enough for me.
I know there will still be rough nights, but I just don’t give a darn anymore. Let ’em come. I won’t (and don’t) try to control anything.
An hour before my sleep window, I get into relaxation mode. I watch TV until I feel myself missing chunks of the show. I then get up, put out the den light, and then get in bed. I make sure all my ducks are in a row for the morning before that 1 hour mark. I’m practically asleep as I walk to bed.
You mentioned once that you often feel sleepy before your sleep window. Provided that doesn’t come on at say, 7pm, maybe move the entire window to an earlier start. I mean I would rather sleep 9pm to 3am, than not all. You might even find that the early morning hours can be used for yourself, for something you might not have had time for before.
Also, it may sound counterintuitive, but maybe see if you can bunk at a friend or a relative’s place for a night. A change of scenery, like their spare room, can often feel like a fresh start.
I’ll definitely send you some pics. We’re getting Hurricane Lee this weekend. Maybe I’ll grab some video too. If the storm isn’t terrible, I’ll be mud biking on a lakeside trail that runs from near my home to the airport, about 17 miles total.
If I ain’t sweatin’, I ain’t livin’ haha

Luke

[Luke45]

Hey, just checking in on you, Czor. Hope you’re as well as you can be.
Doing alright on this end.

Luke

[Luke45]

Hey man, I guess it was your message that got held up. Anyway, if I could live anywhere in the states it would be Texas.
I might just hit you up on that email address. I’ll send you pictures of the incredible beauty of my home province of Nova Scotia.
Remember that all thing must pass and this too shall pass. Amen.
Have a good evening.

Luke

[Luke45]

My sleep window is 12am to 6am. I have never had the need for long sleeps as an adult. My typical “normal” sleep schedule was in fact 12am to 5am, for years, usually with a 10 mile run or cycle before or at sun up before breakfast and work.
So as I mentioned, I’m a bit of an old hand at insomnia. It’s never easy, but things like this are a bit easier to deal with when you have experience (despite my missteps at the outset of my latest bout, earlier this summer).
You’ll arrive at a place that works for you in time.

Luke

[Luke45]

Thank you for your kind words too. I just work a regular job.
I am getting more consistent sleep since about 2 or 3 weeks ago. I still have rough nights here and there. I’ve had longish bouts of insomnia previously, once when I was 17 and again at 27. Both of those were about 2 to 3 months each. I’m 47 now, and yes, the first few weeks of my recent bout were pretty tough.
Since it had been so long since the problem had been present, I had forgotten how to properly react to it. I had even forgotten exactly how those older bouts had resolved. The fact that did though is proof that we never lose our ability to sleep, we just sometimes encounter conditions that don’t favor it.
My preferred belief is that I must have surrendered to the core anxiety of it, either consciously or not, and that eventually helped produce favorable condition for sleep.
Keep in mind that back in the early 90s and the early 2000s society wasn’t really talking about anxiety, and there was no real internet to speak of, so I was flying blind.
Have fun with your family tonight and enjoy learning something new.

Luke

[Luke45]

I’ve been where you are. I know it sucks. What you’re going through is a part of it, and the process of recovery is often different for everyone. About 6 weeks ago, I went 14 days on almost no sleep.
If my message didn’t get through 1) Sorry about that. It might have been too long, and 2) I can sum it up a bit more briefly:

We have to remember, often over and over again, to NOT STRUGGLE against the anxiety produced the fear of losing sleep (and all the discomfort that brings).
It can be difficult to be able to discern when we are still fighting and when we are surrending (meaning, not struggling). It is often not as simple as thinking “I must not struggle”, and the desired result occurs. It is, in my experience a mostly involuntary physical surrender, and that can take time. It doesn’t hurt to remind yourself to not struggle. I do that daily. That is a positive form of reinforcement, and that is the mantra to truly coming to terms with the anxiety.
I don’t know you, but I do know that after all you’ve been through, you’re still here. You might be a lot stronger than you feel right now. Maybe consider allowing yourself the kindness of admiring your own strength. I think of myself as a fairly tough bugger, and I admire YOUR strength, Czor.
I’m here, and I’m your corner.

Luke

[Luke45]

Honestly, Martin, I’m not entirely sure. Largely since this current bout of difficult sleep started, I haven’t really altered very much about how I live my life.
I’m kind to myself in that I don’t heap blame on me when my mind is just doing what evolution has adapted it to do. You taught me that that is what it’s doing, so thank you making that clear.
I got to thinking of my favorite aunt today, and how kind she was. I wondered if showing myself the same level of love as she would in this situation wouldn’t be a great idea. I think it is. Conversely I could use the kind of care I would give to a loved on myself.
Self care and self kindness are new to me, but they ought to be unconditional, I gather.
I’ll have a think on this.
Luke

[Luke45]

Hi Czor,
I’m not on Facebook, but I would certainly engage with you on there if I were.
I want to share some insights I had a few weeks ago, but first I want to say that I’m not trying to instruct you, or if what I talk about is something you’ve already explored, I’m not trying to be obvious, or worse, condescending (btw I’m Canadian, and yeah, we really do apologize a lot – sometimes in advance lol).
I don’t know if you’ve ever dealt with bouts of insomnia previously in your life, like I have. Back when I was 17, and again when I was 27, I had 2-3 months long episodes of it.
I’m 47 now. I’ll connect back to this further down in this reply.
But as a preamble, when the original stress that caused our first sleepless night or nights is resolved, but we’re still left with trouble sleeping, we having sleep anxiety. We all know what that is. Our fight or flight mechanism backfires on us, and in trying to protect us from nighttime wakefulness, it paradoxically keeps us awake. As you know this doesn’t mean that sleep will never happen again, it just means the conditions for it are not right when we’re having the anxiety. No need to explain further.
So, for myself, I’ve come to understand that insomnia is caused by the “fear of the prospect of (more) insomnia” (and how that might affect us).
I’m going to paste something directly from a note on my phone that I made a few weeks ago. I mentioned my prior episodes of insomnia earlier because they are referenced in the note itself. Also please excuse the all caps format of my note. I do that for things I think are important. So, okay, here goes:

I CAN SLEEP. I HAVE NOT LOST THE ABILITY TO SLEEP, HOWEVER

SLEEP CAN NEVER BE CONTROLLED. MEANWHILE,

SINCE INSOMNIA IS LARGELY CAUSED BY THE FEAR OF THE PROSPECT OF INSOMNIA, AND

THERE IS NO TANGIBLE, PHYSICAL THREAT BEHIND THAT FEAR,

I CAN TRAIN MYSELF TO ACCEPT THE PROSPECT OF INSOMNIA WITHOUT IT GENERATING ANXIETY.

I HAVE SURVIVED AND RECOVERED FROM INSOMNIA TWICE IN THE PAST.

FOLLOWING BOTH OF THOSE RECOVERIES, THE PROSPECT OF INSOMNIA SURELY REMAINED, NATURALLY, BECAUSE SLEEP COULD NOT BE CONTROLLED THEN, JUST AS IT CANNOT BE NOW.

THE FEAR OF THE PROSPECT OF INSOMNIA MUST HAVE BEEN OVERCOME BY ME AT THOSE TIMES, WHETHER CONSCIOUSLY OR NOT, TO HELP END EACH EPISODE.

ULTIMATELY, MY PREVIOUS EPISODES OF INSOMNIA ARE PROOF THAT SINCE NO DAMAGE OF ANY KIND OCCURRED TO MY BODY OR MY MIND AT THOSE TIMES AS A RESULT OF POOR, OR NO, SLEEP, THEN NEITHER INSOMNIA, NOR THE VERY PROSPECT OF IT, IS AN ACTUAL THREAT.

THEREFORE THE ACT OF  OVERCOMING THAT VERY FEAR MUST BE TO NOT STRUGGLE AGAINST IT, RATHER THAN TO TRY AND FIGHT IT.

TRYING TO FIGHT IT WOULD IMPLY THAT IT IS A THREAT, WHILE NOT STRUGGLING AGAINST IT WOULD IMPLY THAT IT IS HARMLESS.

IN THOSE PAST EPISODES HAD I CONTINUED TO TRY AND FIGHT IT, THEY WOULD HAVE ENDURED MUCH LONGER.

NONE OF THESE INSIGHTS OR BEHAVIORS WILL CAUSE SLEEP TO HAPPEN, BUT THEY WILL REFRAME THE PROSPECT OF INSOMNIA AS NO THREAT, PROVIDED THAT BEING DISCIPLINED IN MINDFULNESS IS STRICTLY ADHERED TO.

I hope this isn’t too long, and that it makes some kind of sense.

Getting the insights in the note really helped me to feel calmer overall. I don’t always remember to be mindful, and I’m just a human being, but I keep coming back to what I wrote as a reminder of what I think are good practices.

I would offer an email address or a phone number, but this a semi public forum, and I’m not certain what’s permitted on here. Talking about this stuff with others who have gone or are going through it is very helpful.

I’m rooting for you. Let me know if I can offer any other help to you.

Luke

[Luke45]

I want to leave you a longer reply after work. Since my break is pretty short, I don’t have time right at the moment.

I’ll be back in touch.

Luke

[Luke45]

Yes indeed it normal for your sleep to fluctuate. I have been experiencing the same.

I am on week 4, but still working through the week 3 material. My sleep started to improve the 2nd to last weekend of August, so basically at the 2 week point in the course for me.
The majority of the time since then I have been getting a full 6 hours per night (which is more than enough for me) but some of the time I experience the night time anxiety, and end up getting only a couple or few hours.
I know how frustrating those poorer nights are, but they are also normal. This recovery takes time. Use NOW when your having a bad day-after. Name and open up to the frustration.

Accepting nigjt time wakefulness when all you want to do is sleep isn’t pleasant, I know, but it is preferable to generating more and more frustration by wilfully struggling.

Remind yourself not to struggle against the feelings triggering the anxiety. And if you have a run of good nights, don’t get overconfident and meander from your sleep window, meaning getting in bed too early, or staying up too late doing really stimulating things. I did that this weekend, and it did not yield a good result.
Again, this takes time. There will be ups and downs.
We are going to be okay.
Reach out to me, if you want to talk.

Luke

[Luke45]

Precisely. There are indeed a silver linings.
The reactive mind is very powerful. And if I could make a supposition, I would say it is never more so than when it is fueled by presumptions dashed.
This is why it is so important to not have any expectations (in the context of sleep, but perhaps also generally). This I think is another valuable tool to keep handy in my mind.
Thank you again for the kind responses, and the program itself. I am learning a lot.

Luke

[Luke45]

You’re absolutely correct, Martin.
I am a man who up until early July felt completely indestructible, nearly all of the time. Troubles would come, no doubt, but largley speaking they were things that I could control.
The trouble I’ve been experiencing with insomnia has brought about an awakening of a very reactive, almost infantile sort of botheredness, which is not something with which I’ve had to deal in quite a long time.
Today I’ve had the chance to think quite a bit on my reaction to the lack of control (over sleep) that insomnia represents, and have had to again reframe that stress as only being endurable if I consciously chose a more productive response.
I think that in having had some success in sleeping better since Saturday, I’ve built up a not helpful expectation of an uninterrupted continuation of that same success. That expectation is not built on solid ground, since sleep is not controllable.
Like a baby, I just plain want it, and I want it now haha
This reactivity is something to mindful of, and to gently change course from, with better, more realistic, choices.

Thank you, and have a hapoy holiday,
Luke

[Luke45]

Also, it could be that the two iffy nights I had this week happened to be the same nights that I went to the gym after work.
Maybe working out from 630-8pm isnt the greatest idea, if I hope to be chilled out enough to be sleeping by midnight or 1230.
Morning workouts perhaps.

Luke

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