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Deb – Do you mean Ron or me? I know what the book says about accepting your thoughts and I do agree with that. But I also believe that both CBT-i and ACT have several good things in their content. In CBT-i, providing evidence against a thought is a good way of diminishing that thought’s power over me. As an example, when a thought says if I don’t get sleep, I will feel terrible the next day, reminding myself that I have survived poor nights of sleep before diminishes that thought’s truthfulness. There are good things in each method. I want to combine the best of both. It will take awhile but I believe I can beat this.
RonA – I still get consolidated sleep. It’s just that the time I get it seems to be shorter and shorter. Right now, I can’t say my sleep is fragmented because after that initial couple hours of sleep, I pretty much am awake until the alarm rings. If I do sleep longer, I might get a couple wake-ups but they don’t last long. At least not long enough to say the sleep is fragmented. I never really discussed the slightly longer SW with Martin. Only the part about staying in bed if I can’t sleep. I can always shorten the window if I find it’s too long and ACT doesn’t seem to work. But I have faith in ACT this time as now I know I can accept whatever sleep I get at night because I survived bad sleep before.
Deb – Thanks for your response. I’ll see how I do over the next couple of nights and then decide whether to jump in with both feet. I don’t think acceptance will be too much of a problem as I’ve learned to accept whatever sleep I get at night. I know I won’t die the next day. I also know what they mean by not forcing sleep. If I wake, I just stay in that wakeful state and try to confront my sleep fears and irrational ideas.
I am hoping it will work Deb. Just not sure I want to jump in with both feet yet. I don’t think there is a problem if I use an SW for awhile until I am more comfortable with the process of “letting go” yet. It worked last night as when I was laying there and confronting any bad thoughts or ideas, I was prepared to accept whatever happened that night. After all, I knew it couldn’t be any worse than getting up to do SC and not having that work. I want to see how it will work over the next several nights. I am just trying to prevent fragmented sleep by using the SW for awhile longer and as I said, I don’t think an SW will hurt the ACT process. It will just delay it some.
Hi RonA. The problem is, I am not even getting 4 hours of consolidated sleep anymore. I got about 3.5 hours three nights ago, 2.75 hours two nights ago, and if I did SC last night, I’m pretty sure I would only have gotten 2 to 2.5 hours last night. I felt horrible the next day after those first two nights. Today I feel okay. Not great but certainly not in zombie territory. As I said in my post above, once SC consolidated my sleep, which was after about the 2nd week of SR, it really stopped working for me. I no longer get back to sleep after I get up to do SC and then go back to bed. So, whatever sleep I get in the beginning of the night is pretty much it. I want to give ACT another chance. In essence, I am still keeping my SW, even if it’s just a little bigger than it was and with Martin’s approval, I am staying in bed as long as I don’t start really tossing and turning. The only thing I have really done is taking the stress away by knowing ahead of time that I probably won’t be getting up to do SC that night.
Hi Deb. After reading all of your comments over the last couple of days, I decided to try ACT again but on a modified basis. Martin and I already discussed that if I am not stressed, I can lay in bed past the 30/30 rule. I asked him because I noticed some time ago that SC no longer worked for me and I was getting up but never getting back to sleep when I went back to bed. SC only helped mu probably up to the 3rd week of SR. Once my sleep was consolidated, it mo longer worked for me. So, last night, I decided that I was going to stay in bed unless I really started to toss and turn. Once I made that decision, it seemed like a lot of stress left me because I no longer had to decide was I awake long enough that I had to start SC and then deciding what to do during SC and when I could go back to bed. It’s hard during SC for me since I can’t focus my eyes early in the morning. I am tired of playing solitaire and there just isn’t anything to watch on TV.
Last night was tough for me because I was extremely tired from two poor nights of sleep. Unfortunately, I fell asleep for 30 minutes before my SW began so that reduced my sleep drive. And it was a noticeable decrease as I no longer had to fight to stay awake while watching TV. But, I decided to increase my SW by 15 minutes anyway so that if I did wake up, I would hopefully have some time to sleep if I did fall back asleep. For some reason, I have been wakening earlier and earlier and last night was no exception as I woke at 2:00 AM. Before I would have been stressed because I would have to decide if I wanted to try SC or not. After realizing I wasn’t going to get back to sleep, I just got into a comfortable position in bed and faced the insomnia. I told you that last time I tried ACT, I wasn’t trying to force myself to sleep but I might take that back. After now realizing that I was actively trying to clear my mind so I could get to sleep, maybe I was trying to force myself to go to sleep. So this time, after getting into a comfortable position, I lied awake and faced my insomnia and pretty much just laid there and accepted my situation and just tried to counter any bad ideas or thoughts that would come to mind. The last I checked the clock it was about 3:30 and I must have drifted off to sleep because the next time I looked at the clock, it was 5:15. So, I figured I got about 4 hours of sleep last night total. Not great but I firmly believe if I did SC, I wouldn’t have gotten back to sleep so I would have gotten another bad night of sleep. So I consider it a good experiment that turned out positive and will try it again tonight.
What I don’t know is when I should start increasing my SW. I don’t want to increase it too much to fast and risk starting to get fragmented sleep. But I want to start setting myself up for more than 5.5 to 6.0 hours of sleep. I really used to sleep around 7.5 to 8 hours before insomnia hit but I can’t start out at that right away or I know I will get fragmented sleep. I might stay at a 6.25 hour SW for a day or two and then bring it up to 6.5. As long as I can stay comfortable in bed and instead of rolling over and trying to fall back asleep but rather realizing I am awake and confronting my insomnia, I am hoping this works for me. And, another positive about ACT that I noticed before, while ACT may not have worked for me, I did have more energy the next day as I wasn’t expending it doing SC. I don’t feel fantastic today, after all, it was only 4 hours of sleep. But I do feel I have more energy from staying in bed and not having to deal with SC.
Is this the book by Guy Meadows? I have it and I read it but it never really worked for me. Maybe because we have different types of insomnias. You have problems falling asleep. I usually fall asleep within 15 minutes of laying my head on the pillow. It’s staying asleep that’s my problem. And like last night, I wasn’t “trying” to go back to sleep. I usually do breathing exercises to relax me and put me in the mood for sleep. And I think I have accepted the fact that I have insomnia. I just can’t get back to sleep. And after awhile, just lying there starts to get uncomfortable and boring and I start tossing and turning. So I end up having to do SC but there’s a good chance I end up staying awake the whole night until the alarm goes off. That’s why I was curious what you do when you start to toss and turn.
Hi Deb. If you are monitoring this, I have a question for you. I know with ACT, you are supposed to stay in bed if you can’t sleep. Or at least sit on the side of the bed for awhile. What do you do if you can’t sleep and you start tossing and turning? Thanks.
Thanks for answering my questions Deb. I have to say that I really can’t use ACT yet as it didn’t help me at all the first time I tried it. And while CBT-i has only increased my sleep by an hour since I started using it, it has condensed by sleep. It used to be very fragmented but now it has consolidated a lot, which is better for me. I’m afraid if I started using ACT again, and going to bed and getting up when I did previous to my insomnia, which was about 9:30 to 5:15, my sleep would become fragmented again and I would be very tired again. And if I couldn’t handle that, I would have to start from scratch with SR again and it’s dreaded SC. Of course you were doing good on SR with about 5 out of 7 good nights. And you were sleeping what on those 5 nights? Around 7 hours a night? So you were way ahead of me. Maybe when I sleep that well, I can try ACT again.
Glad to hear it Deb. So let me ask you a couple questions. Do you think you did better on ACT because of your sessions with Dr. Kat and that if you didn’t have those sessions you would still be having problems with ACT? Do you have any more sessions planned with her? Does this mean you are not doing SC and that if you are awake longer than 30 minutes, you don’t get up? Do you think it’s just the overall stress levels being reduced that you are sleeping better? Are you generally feeling better than when you were doing CBT-i after you finished Martin’s course? Do you use a sleep window? Are you still taking anti-depressants to combat your anxiety at bedtime? Sorry for all of the questions but I am curious. I really don’t have the anxiety that I used to have when I go to bed. I do admit I have some anxiety about how I am going to sleep that night but I am getting to sleep, usually, within 15 minutes after I go to bed, if not too much longer after that. So something is causing me to be aroused about 4 hours after I go to sleep. I figure I will slowly conquer that as long as I start getting more and more sleep and my sleep window expands. My confidence in my ability to sleep should increase at that point.
I am still all over the board with my sleep. At the beginning of last week I had a couple of really good days then towards the end of the week I had a couple of bad days and then I got two good days, but last night I got a bad night again. However, that could be because of the high heat and humidity we have been having. Last night, I couldn’t get the house any cooler than 79 degrees. That was too hot to sleep in and while I did manage to fall asleep and stay asleep for awhile, I couldn’t get back to sleep after I woke up at 3:10 in the morning. I can live with the bad sleep if it wasn’t for the headaches I get the next day after I have a bad night. And of course, the dry eye syndrome that the insomnia is causing which is affecting my vision. In fact, I really don’t have a problem with being tired anymore as a night or two of good sleep takes care of that. The vision problems do cause dizzyness and I never really had a problem with my eyes until I started SR and SC. Overall, I think I am improving but very, very slowly but I would like to ditch SC if I could. I signed up for Martin’s extended course and I am asking him if as long as I am not tossing and turning, can I stay in bed rather than do SC. I know there are times I should use it, like when I can’t stop tossing and turning, but when I have to get up early in the morning for it, I end up just sitting in a darkened room because I can’t focus my eyes to read.
Glad to hear you are doing better.
Thanks gsdmom for the history of your insomnia. It sounds like you are slowly recovering and I’m glad to hear it. As they say, I wouldn’t wish insomnia on my worst enemy. My insomnia started at the end of October last year. I had to have a stent put in an artery and two weeks after I had it placed, I just woke up in the middle of the night and couldn’t get back to sleep. I haven’t had a decent night’s sleep since. They say the surgery to place the stent, and any drugs they gave me during the surgery, didn’t cause the insomnia. Of course, what are they going to say? They insist it was caused by high stress levels due to the stent and other things I had going on in my life. They could be right but I guess I’ll never know. And I don’t really care either as even if the surgery did cause it, there is nothing they can do for it now anyway. They tried giving me more anti-depressant drugs which only made things worse as well as benzos and sleeping pills. The only thing that worked was Xanax but I didn’t want to stay on that long term due to the addiction problems. And the sleeping pills like Ambien never worked for me. My insomnia got so bad that in February, I had four straight nights totaling only one hour of sleep. I probably had more Stage 1 sleep than I realized but it was not refreshing at all.
After I read about CBT-i, I decided to try that. It was tough at first but gradually my sleep did become consolidated. After the end of Martin’s course, I am averaging just under 5 hours of sleep but really need about 5.5 to at least function the next day with minimal insomnia side effects. I don’t know if they are right about the stress causing this or not but my triggers that might have caused the insomnia have all gone away leaving the insomnia. Now I do stress about insomnia some but that is easing too as I realize that I can function even on four hours sleep. It’s difficult, but I’m not going to fall apart. I am involving myself in outside activities that I enjoy as well which further reduces the stress. I do feel that I am going to break out of this insomnia soon. I don’t know why I feel that way but I really do. I don’t know if it’s wishful thinking or not but I have a more positive attitude and while I may still think about the insomnia (it’s hard not to think about something that controlled a lot of my life even if only for about 9 months or so) I don’t have as many negative thoughts about it anymore. It’s just something that’s there. So now that my attitude is changing, I am hoping it slowly goes away.
I know what you mean about feeling great after your 6.5 hour sleep. I had a 6.5 hour and a 5.75 hour last week and I felt great too! Of course, the only reason it happened was I didn’t set my alarm (I never sleep to the end of my SW so I don’t see a need to set it much anymore) and slept past my SW. The only supplement I would consider taking is melatonin and I have to be carefult when I take it. If I take it too late into my SW, I will wake up with a melatonin hangover as my SW is only 6 hours long. I have taken water soluble CBD oil and it really didn’t do anything for me so I stopped taking it long ago. I am thinking of getting a cat this weekend to replace one I lost recently and I hope that also helps my mood. I mentioned I was alone. I am hoping the cat will be a companion to me when I come home at night from work so I don’t have to come home to an empty house. So, I have not given up yet on getting rid of this insomnia. I just know it is going to take awhile to get into the 6 hour sleep time on a consistent basis. I wish you good luck with your sleep.
Hi Deb. Well, I actually regressed a little the last three nights as I reverted to having 4 hours of sleep each of those nights. But I try not to dwell on it and just take the day as it comes. I know better nights will come because they have in the past. The problem for me now seems to be awakening at 3:30 a lot of those nights and sometimes, i can’t geet back to sleep after that awakening. I fall asleep relatively quickly so that’s not a problem. I have been staying off of all pills and supplements to help me sleep while I was on Martin’s course but I might try to experiment a little and try a melatonin again. Since I only have a 6.0 hour sleep window from 11:15 to 5: am, if I wake up at 3:30, I can’;t take the melatonin then as it will only give me about an hour and a half of sleep, even if it does work, and then I will be very groggy the next day. But I was thinking of trying it a little before my SW begins and see what it does. Maybe it will allow me to sleep past 3:30. I would rather try this experiment on the weekend so if it does make me groggy, I won’t have to go to work the next day. I know you take Ambien but I can’t take that. Not only doesn’t it work for me, but by the second day, it plugs up my sinuses and gives me a post nasal drip which gives me a sore throat. Hope you sleep better soon.
Hi gsdmon. I am sorry you are having trouble with your husband as well. He should be supporting you but at least you got a quiet place away from him at night. How long has your insomnia been going on? I have had a bad last three nights as I have only slept four hours each night. I was getting in the low to mid 5’s but I seem to have regressed some. That seems to be normal with me. I now have several good night followed by several bad nights and then the cycle starts over again. I just seem to keep waking up around 3:30 on those bad nights and can’t get back to sleep. I did SC last night but when I went back to bed, I thought I was sleepy but still couldn’t sleep. At least when i have the good nights, the hours of sleep seem to creep a little higher. I hope you start to sleep better soon.
Hi Deb – Yes I am. Over the last 13 days, I have had 7 days of 5.o hours or above sleep and 6 days of below 5.o hours of sleep. Some were really good as I had two days above 6.0 hours of sleep. (I slept past the alarm and the end of my sleep window,) But I also had a day or two of below 4 hours of sleep. The days seem to come in bunches like I will have two or three days of good sleep and then a couple days of bad sleep. I do feel better when I get above 5 hour sof sleep. There is less dizzyness and brain fog, although I still have some of that. I have found that everyone has different symptoms from their insomnia. Like some people shake. I really only do that when I get below 4 hours of sleep. But I do still get the headaches, brain fog and dizzyness. And of course the tiredness but even the tiredness goes away a lot when I get above 5 hours of sleep.
One thing that has helped me is that I have been forcing myself to get out and do activities I enjoy even if I feel lousy. That improves my attitude a lot. I really do feel like I am going to break from this insomnia soon. Hasn’t happened yet but I am in a better mood due to the activities I do and I do see in improvements in my sleep. I just have to try and stop falling asleep in my chair waiting for my SW to start. Hopefully I will start increasing my sleep soon to the 6 hour level. I am probably going to sign up for one or two more extended courses with Martin as I really do need the support. I am not married anymore or have any kids so I have no support at home. I am hoping Martin’s extended course can provide that support for me one or two times more. Than I am on my own. Hope you are doing better.
Hi gsdmom. I see we are having the same problem. I also sleep until 3:30 and then wake and can’t get back to sleep a lot of times. I do sleep sometimes through till 4:30 and the other day, I fell back to sleep and slept till the alarm went off. But a lot of times, I wake at 3:30, wait for around 30 minutes and then have to get up to do SC. But I never feel sleepy so even if I do go back to bed after 30 minutes, I have to get up again. By that time, I might as well just stay up as it’s so close to the alarm. I have to start consistently doing SC again as I didn’t have to do it for awhile so when I start needing to do it, it’s hard to get up. My problem with the SC is usually I have to do it early in the morning and my eyes are just too tired to read and I am tired of watching TV or playing solitaire. So that doesn’t leave many options left except to sit quietly in a darkened room.
I am starting to be all over the board with my sleep again but for now, thank goodness, I am not going down into the 3 hour sleeps again. I feel I am improving, even if slowly. Hope you are doing better as well.
