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My apologies for not replying, I’m not getting any emails apparently.
I would not consider myself a night owl. I’ve been a morning lark ever since I lived in apartments(15 years ago) with poor windows and shades, so I always woke up with the sun and the sounds of birds.
Ideally, I would sleep 10p-5a. My wife is up at 5a to drink coffee and read in peace for an hour. I either sit with her or if I had a good night will do stretching/elliptical workout for 45 minutes. I don’t really get up and start my day, I’m just up and waiting for the kids to wake to make them breakfast.
For the longest time, I always had what I think are called Swiss Awakenings. I knew my wife’s alarm would be at 5a, and I would be up 5-15 min before.That has since turned much earlier and is way more erratic, can be 2a-4a. Right now, I’m focusing on not knowing what time it is. Even though I didn’t clock watch, I could always infer what time it was after the fact.
Right now I only trust myself to sleep in bed when I am dead tired or have been dozing on the couch, and I fall asleep almost instantly. I’d also like to work on catching that a little sooner, so a minor state of wakefulness isn’t so disturbing at night. I’ve done traditional CBT-i, but found the get back in bed when tired part to never happen, since monitoring my wakeful state cause hyper arousal. I like having some kind of light audio on at this time to help distract my inner thoughts.
Personally, I’m having a better week. Awakenings still happen, but deeper sleep has been happening in those last few hours. Even stayed in bed once or twice, as my wife was out where I would be. It’s funny how sometimes I’ll have a better night when going to bed earlier (like 9:30) instead of later (maybe 10/10:15+). I know you should have a consistent bedtime, but I think ACT gave a little leeway in that it doesn’t have to be perfect. I should probably reread that book.
I was (and still am to a degree) in this boat for quite a while(years). I’m only starting to feel like my body is starting to extend its’ sleep drive past 5.5-6.5 hours. While talking to a sleep doc about my daughter, I asked about myself and she said “it’s probably just a rut.” It seemed like no matter what bed time (9:30-11:30) my sleep wouldn’t lengthen.
I did the whole CBT-i thing with a sleep psyc. I did ok with that, but I was such a good rule follower, my engine was revved too much every awakening. Eventually we worked toward acceptance (ACT) which helped.
What helps me when I wake too early, if I am revved: I change location, keep everything dark, and put on a podcast for some sound. I call it my rest time, I accept the fact that I probably won’t fall back asleep, but that being quiet and still my body is getting some rest and some benefit. Sometimes I do fall back asleep, and sometimes not. Sometimes I do fall back asleep, and sometimes not. But I do feel better than when I was struggling with it.
I feel getting sunlight (even on cloudy days) has been helpful, and also meal timing (at the very least eating within a 12 hour window). But I certainly don’t put all the eggs in that basket.
Trip,
How has your journey been? Your situation sounds exactly like mine. I’ve been sleeping shorter and shorter for years. Always waking before my wife’s 5a alarm, but the the past 2-3 years it’s 1-2 hours before that. At it seems like that early wake happens no matter what bedtime is. I saw a sleep doc, and tried CBT-i, but sleep restriction (getting out of bed at these early awakenings), would rouse me a little too much as I waited to get sleepy again. So we worked on acceptance. Now I usually leave the bedroom to “rest” on the couch in the dark with a podcast on. Sometimes I get an extra sleep cycle, but sometimes not. Generally I do OK on 6+ hours, but it’s easy to not get that much too.
It’s hard because there’s not many resources or tips for sleep maintenance, how to build up sleep drive after you’ve lost it. And in a several year rut, it feels like the body has a learned behavior and the added anxiety waking at that time doesn’t help. But like you, just trying to keep my cool and not let it get to me.
That sounds a lot like my sleeping pattern. I used to awaken a little before 5a, when my wife’s alarm goes off, but for almost 2 years I awaken either side of 4a. It’s been frustrating for me the past week+ as it’s been very consistent, where earlier I was getting closer to 5a a couple times a week.
I did the whole CBT-i, with a sleep doc. Though I worked through the program, it didn’t help me much, even though I did everything it asked of me. Eventually we moved towards ACT (Acceptance), and I found peace with it. I think sleep maintenance insomnia might be a little more difficult to deal with in general.
What I do, I get up and use restroom (even though that’s not why I got up) just to reset. I usually go downstairs and put on a podcast softly and rest on the couch. Often I have fallen back asleep, though lately not so much. I accept this as my current sleeping pattern, and I call that my rest time. If I do fall asleep, bonus. I then get up after 5a when my wife gets up. I’ve found that making sure I rest in the dark for my desired time, even if awake, is better than struggling and I usually get through the day feeling just fine. Not fantastic, but better than before seeing the sleep doc.
I hope you’re doing better than when you wrote this.Hey everyone, I’m back. I’m writing this as a personal therapy, hoping that getting it down on the page takes it out of my head.
It’s been a while. I felt cured from the stress of insomnia and haven’t been to the sleep psyc since November, when she said I don’t need to go back. To Review, with her I did CBT-i, but I’m such a good rule follower, early awakenings ramped me up just enough where it wasn’t helping. ACT helped get me out of that funk, and she was pointing me in that direction even though she didn’t know how ACT was applied to insomnia. Once I figured out what was happening, I was able to relax more at night and sometimes fall back asleep.
Still had some rough patches, still occasionally took pills (though instead of once a week, it’s weeks longer in between). Part of my accepting did involve getting out of bed, I think at least half or more of the the nights. I could feel myself becoming more awake. So I would go downstairs, lay on the couch, put on a podcast(so I hear someone else’s voice besides my own) and just call it rest. Sometimes I might get a good rest with dreams, sometimes it’s undetermined light or feels like no sleep. For the most part, I was happy, exercising regularly (between 5:30-6:15a), I felt like I was accomplishing things. Regular meditation usually helps. I would occasionally skip a few days, and sometimes I would start stressing and having not great nights. Restarting a 10-day meditation, things would usually snap back mentally.
Even though it’s never been steady, I feel lately it’s been extra bad. I think it stems from last month, when I had some sinus drainage issues and that stressed me out because it made me start to really acknowledge my tinnitus. I think I’ve always had it (I’m a musician), but I started giving it more attention and it started bothering me. So even though I’ve been sleeping with it fine for years, now I’m trying to figure out how to deal with it. I started using white noise with some success. But now I’m also wondering if I’ve added a crutch.
This past week has had more 2a awakenings, in a row, with little or no sleep after. It got better for a few days (waking after 4a, woo!). But last night was another short night. It’s just really starting to get to me, to the point where those awakenings are more stressful at the moment. I’ve been trying not to check the clock, but sometimes it happens accidentally. Though I’m relatively not too stressed when I wake, as the time progresses, I tend to monitor myself more(when I’m more stressed about it). Even if there’s podcasts on, I tend to not listen.
*I’m trying to decide how much attention I need to give this issue. Should I re-read parts of the ACT book? Or do I keep meditating and take it one night at a time?*
I’m also stressing, since the kids will be off school for 3 weeks. I work an evening job, so even on bad nights, I had plenty of time during the day to relax. I don’t fear a short night as my energy comes back in the afternoon with a tiny 10 min nap. But my kids are still young, so I’ll be making lunches, breaking up fights, etc., and probably not getting time for self-care, much less 10 min of quiet. Maybe it won’t be so bad. And today is new instrument day (which comes sometimes once a year), so hopefully it plays well and cheers me up.
p.s. This post is crazy long. Maybe in April, close the post and start ACT 2020 Q2?
Hello Everyone,
Just giving a quick check in. I’m going to say it’s been a very good week for me. The early morning awakenings haven’t improved, but my anxiety associated with that has. I may have even fallen back asleep once or twice. I had a “straw that broke” moment last week where I was getting poor sleep where I normally would’ve reached for a pill but I decided to just have a bad night, where I would just rest on the couch, listening to podcasts. I think I’m getting about the same amount of sleep, but my energy has increased and the insomnia mind is quieter. I’ve been meditating regularly for 2 months too.I think the SC didn’t help me much. I think revved me up a gear in making a decision, then there was a lot of monitoring my tiredness and I never successfully made it back to bed. Though I (somewhat) enjoyed the structure of CBT-i, I think it inadvertently added to the anxiety.
There is one question I’ve been thinking of that I haven’t found a solution to yet. CBT-i says to get out of bed after 20 minutes, so you don’t associate wakefulness with the bed. ACT says to stay in bed to begin to associate peaceful acceptance with the bed. So maybe the wakefulness is anxiety, and you should only stay in bed if you’re not anxious, but what if you’re at peace with the situation, but just done with it? Is it ok to get out of bed and go lie somewhere else? Lately, that’s what I’ve been doing. I’m at peace with the situation, but it feels like an hour has past and I’m tired of hearing my voice in my head. So I’ll rest on the couch, in the dark with a podcast and no expectation. Sometimes it’s early and I might get some light sleep. Others it’s closer to 5a than I realize, so no biggie. I know ACT is light on the rules (and I’m a good rule follower), but this kind of breaks that sleep in your own bed rule. What do you think?
I hear you JT. It’s been an on/off couple weeks for me. I did not expect last night to be as bad as it was, and I grew frustrated waiting for the alarm for what felt like hours. It’s certainly been worse though, and I’m trying to stay positive. This learned behavior didn’t start in one day and it won’t end in one day either. I’m glad I wasn’t tempted the last 2 nights to take a pill.
My rhythm has reset itself, back to a short but good quality 6 hours. So it’s been back to business as usual. I have another late gig this Saturday, that will put me home around midnight (usual bedtime is 10), but I’m not going to take any caffeine beforehand like I did last week. It’s new and challenging to read music so I won’t bored, and it’ll be plenty loud.
I’m wondering if this learned early arousal (which is all I have to explain it) is hereditary. My 6 year old daughter has always been on the short side of the sleep range for her age, but lately she’s been getting up earlier and earlier. Like 1-2 hours before her twin brother. She’s also a very defiant child, so that may play a role as well. She wants to do what she wants to do.
2 weeks ago, I was feeling pretty positive, it seemed like I was making some progress. Last week, it seemed like I had lost all that progress, I was a little bummed and I could really feel the shortened sleep by Saturday. But because of that shortened sleep, I poorly planned managing my sleep Sat night. I had a bar gig, which thankfully was local, but still was supposed to go until 1a (really only 12). Though it was only 5 min away, I was still nervous being up before 4a that day, so I had a “gig juice” (caffeinated V8 drink), but I had it later than last time (cuz I had an hour ride home after midnight the time before that didn’t go so well). So the later gig juice kept me up and I tried managing it with pills. And Sunday I had Onset issues again, which I don’t handle with ACT well and gave up after a couple hours. And since I had pills 2 days in a row, I knew last night I would have rebound issues last night but I was more calm about it this time. No desire for pills, accepting the bad night. Though I didn’t want stay in bed awake and did get a couple hours on the couch. It’s my MO after 2 nights of pills. Hopefully after a full evening of work I’ll be back to my normal. I’ve got an upcoming late salsa gig this Sat, that I want to be alert for, but I will just make sure I am well practiced and I’ll try it without the gig juice.
It’s much colder at night now, so that might be messing with me as well. I think I want to leave a fan on, hopefully my wife is ok with that.
In good news, even though I was bumming a little last week, I finished a portion of a video project that I’ve wanted to do for a while. Of course it helps the grass needs less tending.
Deb – Awesome to hear you’re into jazz/taking lessons. I teach private sax lessons and have a weekly big band gig.
Thanks for asking, Deb. I’m going to say I’ve been doing much better the past 7-10 days.
I had an unexplainable really bad night a week from Thursday (unusual Onset, took meds, still woke early), but since then it seems things have been improving. I’ve remained drowsy at times where the insomnia mind would’ve kept me up (like bad storms), I’ve fallen back asleep once or twice. I even had a night where I had to break the rules because of a late gig (I occasionally play in wedding bands) where I had to have caffeine in the evening to get through the gig, then eat after midnight and drive home 1+hour. I fell asleep fine around 1:30a, still woke 5ish maybe due to kid, but still rested after that. Though the day was still challenging, it wasn’t the pain I felt during normal insomnia/SR.
I met with my sleep doc, first time in a month. Since I’m no longer doing CBT-i, we’re kind of twiddling our thumbs trying to fill the 45 min. It’s a little frustrating, as we can discuss the 2 sides of topics I can’t decide on, she’ll agree with me on the pro/cons of both sides but I won’t get a recommendation (like if I should log sleep, or abstain from alcohol).
I have stopped ‘light’ logging this past week. I added a second cup of coffee (even though it’s usually consumed while standing/tending to kids not relaxing).
“….They’re very hard-working, they’re very intense. A lot of times the structure of CBT-I just feeds into that and ends up being in that negative.”(from Nick Wignall)
Yeah, that speaks to me. I can certainly see the value of CBT-i, but I think it’s those rules that contributed to my insomnia. I had no problem following the rules, but maybe the nightly ritual of doing something when I woke early taught my brain to be a little anxious in the early morning. And since I did CBT-i by myself years ago, I’ve almost always applied SC and I think it’s applying that SC last January is what started this 2nd major bout in the first place.
This bout of insomnia started in January, after being ill around Xmas time. I was suddenly waking an hour or more earlier, and before that I would get less than 7 hours. So now it’s 6 or less every day. My previous bout was with Onset was after my twins were born and the night feedings were finished. I had years of poor sleep hygiene before that, and now added afternoon caffeine (since work had a nice coffee shop inside at the time) to cope with the night feedings. I couldn’t figure out why I couldn’t sleep and eventually got pills. I did CBT-i on my own, but I think it cleared up once I fixed my sleep hygiene. So what I learned from that first CBT-i was to get out of bed if you’re awake. Well that’s what I’ve been doing since January. I’d wake before 4a, go downstairs and hope to sleep on the couch. So my brain has learned that behavior, at least that’s my theory. ACT has at least changed my outlook a little, and I usually feel more rested (except for today), even though I don’t believe my sleep has extended much the last 3-4 weeks.
Greetings!
I just wanted to add my voice to the chorus of ACT. Deb commented on my first post. My sleep doc was basically having me take a break from CBT-i , so we took the rules/logging away and were working on mindfulness/acceptance anyways, though she didn’t know Dr. Guy’s book existed.
I struggle with Sleep Maintenance (Onset is rare, though it has come up twice recently). I was always a short sleeper to begin with, but all year long I started waking at least an hour or more earlier than usual. I’ve been working on ACT for maybe a month or so. Staying in bed resting certainly gives me more energy in the day vs getting out of bed (which rarely resulted in going back down) and micro-sleeps during my afternoon job are now more rare. My attitude when I do wake certainly has changed, certainly more mellow. But it is difficult to lay there for an hour or more. I grow impatient, listening for any audible sign it’s almost 5a (my wife’s alarm). There are still various weird events that happen during the night where I do end up using meds maybe once a week, and I’m sure that’s setting me back.
Here’s some related topics I can’t decide on what to do:
SR – I think adding an earlier alarm when I did CBT-i caused anxiety. I already get up at my wife’s 5a alarm. And I don’t know how shortening my in-bed time will help me fall back asleep at 3a, since I have almost no problem with my sleep drive/falling asleep. I think the only thing it would help is the relief of just lying there for an hour or more. But still I’m trying to re-train my brain that I don’t get out of bed at that time.
Caffeine – When all of this started, I was drinking 2 cups in the morning (24 oz before 7a). After learning more about caffeine half/quarter-life I cuz it down to 12 oz. I can certainly get through, and will occasionally have a second cup with seemingly no effect on the evening. It’s more routine with my wife (though we don’t drink 2nd cup together)
Clock watching/Logging – Several times during my CBT-i, sleep doc told me to pause logging. Lately I’ve been putting a color on the calendar (red/pink/yellow/green) because I’m sure it’s beneficial to me to see some kind of week to week progress over time. But the flip side of that is I’m making a judgement, which is not really acceptance.
Deb – Could you explain in broad strokes, what ACT is about?
From what I gather, I think my sleep doc is about to have me go through that. Last week she told me to stop logging and that we would work on mindfulness this week.
For anyone who read my word wall – I did put everything on pause and my sleep returned to a solid 5-6. I found out I had been waking around 1:30 and struggling for 5 nights straight. So I’m in a better place than I was a week ago.
As much as I was hoping to avoid insomnia topics, I’m at a low right now and I hope writing about it is therapeutic.
Martin, to respond: Obviously I’ve survived on less sleep, but it’s never been by choice. Any time I got above average (close to 7) I felt better than on days I didn’t. I have no problem being a “lark” but my body just isn’t generating enough sleep. For a while it was a solid 6+, this year it’s been 5-6, and this past week I’m waking after 4, I think, and not falling back asleep.
I always sleep way worse on vacation(and this was just visiting family, not a huge vacation). And this bed at my FIL’s is pretty uncomfortable too. My sleep doc recommended I take a vacation on vacation from all things CBT-I. She says I’m doing really good, but my strive to do good might be getting in the way. My usual sleep pattern continued, except the last night I finally lengthen my time significantly. And that continued at home for 2-3 days after, even getting close to 7 and feeling sleep inertia. And then my waking pattern has come back with vengeance, and more often than not, I’m not falling back asleep. Strange this pattern started with sleep restriction back in June. I think maybe I allowed my self to go too long after vacation with no sleep restriction, and though I was improving when I got back, I’ve hit a regression.
Part of me wonders if part of the issue is having an alarm. I know having a consistent wake time is important, but when I wake at night, part of me is always waiting for that alarm to go off, which I think is getting in the way of falling back asleep. But I know I’m not supposed to look at the clock at night, so I don’t know how else to manage this. My sleep did get better after 3 days of no alarms, but then returned to bad pattern after that, with no alarm. Right now, the alarm is just there to tell me to stop worrying about sleeping and start your day.
Also, days before that vacation, I started light therapy. Blue blockers in the morning, light box during dinner in the evening. Part of me wants to think my early awakenings is a circadian rhythm issue. I have a 2nd shift job 3-4 days a week, where I’m in a windowless somewhat dim walk-in closet in the afternoon/evening hours (4-5 hours), usually until 8:30 or 9p. The evening light box doesn’t seem to affect my bed time, and does help perk me up for my last half of appointments.
I tried a timed release melatonin (5mg) last night, but I don’t think that did anything.
I also started using nasal strips at night. I can certainly tell it improves my breathing, but I don’t know if it’s helped me or not. I’ve had good nights without it.
I had my first appointment in 3 weeks yesterday with my sleep doc, and I got very conflicting advice. She told me to again, stop logging, but to keep a consistant 4a wake time. That instead of moving to a different bed when I wake to stay in the same bed (which helped on vacation, using pzizz). She really wants me working on sleeping in my bed, and not a couch or guest bed, though I’ve never fallen back asleep in my own bed in quite a while. There’s also conflict with having a beer or not (it was never a sleep aid), whether to alter that behavior or not let insomnia alter my behaviors.
Part of me is wondering if I should just put it all on pause for now, the alarm, light therapy, melatonin, nasal strips. Like I’m putting a lot of effort into something that shouldn’t require none.
Sorry for the wall of text. If you made it this far, thanks for reading.
Well I know I don’t have sleep confidence, though I do fall asleep just fine at 10p. When I wake in the early morning hours (2:30-3:30, I think), I just do not feel as drowsy like I do at 10 and my mind feels like it’s ready to go, even though my body is tired. And then doing CBT-i, I know to not wait in bed, but then I’m constantly monitoring myself waiting for that same sleepiness I feel at 10p. Once that monitor kicks on, it’s very hard to turn off. I might notice I’m not paying attention to whatever show and decide to go back to bed, but then within 5 min of being in bed, the awareness kicks back on. And of course with CBT-i, now that I have an alarm, when I wake I’m just hoping for that alarm to go off.
Insomnia is interesting. When I first started seeing the sleep doc, my issue was my already short sleep pattern had become even shorter. I start CBT-i and suddenly I’m waking in the night. Eventually I built up enough sleep drive where I was falling back asleep pretty quickly.
The last few weeks have been interesting. As I took a vacation, my sleep doc said to take a vacation from all of this work as well. And suddenly, the last day of vacation, I was no longer being woken in the middle, I was getting a more solid 5.5-6. And that stuck around for a few days, and even extended. I was getting really excited. And I had also added in light therapy around this same time (and it seemed like it was helping). Though I was nervous with the light therapy affecting my bedtime (which it did at first), so I continued my CBT-i break, as my sleep seemed like it was starting to regulate on said break.
But unfortunately, those early awakenings have returned. And though I’ve continued with the light therapy (in the eve to help correct circadian rhythm), I’ve still been sleepy at a good time at night, so I started back logging/sleep restriction last night. What’s also been unfortunate is my sleep doc was on vacation for 2 weeks after my 1 week vacation.
But I also think it’s time I stop feeding the cookie monster. Thanks for the reply.
