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Hi Mac- So I resumed a 5.5hr sleep window and like you said, it really built my sleep drive to the point where I was sleepy upon going to bed. Also felt super sleepy in bed, but then fell into this very light sleep stage where I felt semi-awake with my mind jumping from story to story. So it’s like my mind is in this constant state of hyper vigilance.
In the past, this level of sleepiness would have provided me with some level of sleep relief, but in this instance – as sleepy as I was (and I was seriously sleepy!), it wasn’t enough to override the hyperactive state of my mind.
Do you think that with continued use of a strict sleep window, the sleep drive will eventually override my hyperactive mind? Prior to adopting ACT, what techniques helped the most with your anxiety?
Suren
Mac- The term sleep system in this instance was actually borrowed from Martin, and in the context of our exchange seemed to refer to how well I was sleeping (may have been informally used)
I also agree that insomnia is largely sustained by anxiety. Is it the root cause though, or is the anxiety fueled by our underlying thoughts and beliefs?
Like you, I don’t advocate meds. I only mentioned it as in my own experience, Xanax did not help me to sleep, not even once after repeated use- hence my skepticism.
While just an opinion and quite abstract, I also feel that the brain is highly plastic and that neuroplasticity plays a role. That there’s a subconscious training that occurs when the nervous system has been made to operate in a certain way for prolonged periods that has to be unlearnt.
Mac. Many thanks for the very thoughtful response, and also for echoing my own thoughts that a more aggressive approach may be best for me given the stage of recovery that I’m in.
When I was working with Martin, I used a 6 hr sleep window while he advocated 5.5. Its seemed to work at the start so I stuck to it, so I’ve never used anything as small as 4-5 hrs. This would be challenging, but in reality my body is not generating more that 3 hrs of sleep even on my next night.
Would you also advocate for stimulus control? This is a sticky one for me, as I felt as after a while, it’s almost as though my body was waking up of its own accord to get out of bed. Prior to CBT, I would have 6-7 hrs of light uninterrupted sleep. The fragmented sleep for me only started after stimulus control.
Also, I tend to experience slept cues around 10:30 or so. With the strict SRT would you advise to disregard the sleep cues so that I can be in compliance with my selected sleep window? I also have a hard time being out of bed too early. Plus prior to the insomnia I went into bed at 7-8pm, watched TV until midnight and awoke around 7/7:30. I never felt sleepy at 10:30. This only started happening after CBT.
One other thing to point out though, while my nervous system may be a wreck, I’m never overtly anxious about not sleeping. I’m actually quite calm towards it. What I’m anxious about is the ruinous effects it’s having on my beautiful face. I also feel some unease when implementing a smaller sleep window, as at times it felt like I needed to get up when I had not too long gotten into bed, and that was a real killer! My personality is generally grounded which is a bit juxtaposed to what I’m experiencing, but I’m super analytical and have to really catch myself so as not to analyze every nuance on my sleep. I’d argue that it isn’t just my nervous system but also my sleep system which is greatly compromised. There’s a tendency in this community to chalk everything up to anxiety, but I do somehow differentiate between the sleep and nervous systems – though the two are interlinked. If it was just anxiety (and it could well be), then a high dose of Xanax should do the trick. No?
I’m thinking I could give a sleep window of 12-5 a try for a good month and see how it goes. This may be frowned upon by Sasha Stephens as she doesn’t advocate for SRT. Also, do you recommend journaling as well?
Mac- I love your directness. But prior to responding to your question, I’d like to piggyback on what Steve has shared a bit. Each time I try a new technique things seem to look up for the 1st week or two, then the technique seems to loose its effectiveness. It’s almost as though my body adjusts to the pattern and it becomes the new norm. So with CBT, while SRT initially did build my sleep drive, over time, I noticed that my body seem to adjust to having fewer hours of sleep, and sleeping for only 2-3 hrs was no longer sufficient to build my sleep drive.
I’m in my late 30s. I started using sleeping pills immediately after my sleep broke, and then was put on all kinds of antidepressants/antipsychotics for 8 months after. I noticed that my sleep quality changed when I was using sleeping pills. I’m Sasha Stephens book she mentioned that they can alter your sleep quality and affect your ability to sleep deeply, though I’d like to think not permanently(!!)
When I started CBT in May, I had good results for the 1st two weeks. I was sleeping 4-5 hrs every other night and the quality wasn’t bad. Then in the 3rd week it shifted to every 2-3 nights, then once a week. Things started to regress quickly, and at the time I was working closely with Martin, sticking to the sleep window, doing strict stimulus control, and kept on course with the program for exactly 7 weeks. The only deviation would be going into bed 30 minutes prior to my sleep window on really bad nights or accidentally napping for 30 mins-1 hr in the early morning. But this was a rare occurrence.
After 7 weeks of doing CBT, inspired by Deb’s story, I decided to gave ACT a try. When I stopped CBT I was getting about 1- 2 hrs of light sleep on most nights. After my 2nd week of ACT, I was getting 2-3 hrs of light sleep most nights, so this was promising. I felt hopeful, but then by week 3, I went to not sleeping at all.
After ACT, I tried using a blend of ACT and CBT in that I’d use a 6.5 or 7hr sleep window. and did not do stimulus control at all. I also went to bed when tired, and tried a mindfulness technique daily. I shared the outcome of this practice in an earlier thread.
Now that I’m doing ACT again, things feel very reminiscent of my initial ACT experience given the stretches of no sleep nights.
I keep thinking: should I forge forward in spite of these sleepless nights with ACT? There’s a small part of my that thinks that ACT may work best for people who are semi-recovered. Is this thinking flawed? In Meadows book he referenced a healing period of 2 months. In all fairness, I haven’t stuck to this technique for that long.
Mac- I’ve had insomnia for about 1.5 years. I took meds for the 1st 8 months and weaned off 5.5 months ago after starting CBT with Martin. I have been doing SRT for 5.5 months. I’d be content with having a few bad nights. Thing is, I’ve had bad nights for like 95% of this time. Which equates to me having no more than 10 nights in the last months where I didn’t wake up completely exhausted after about 1-3 hours of super light sleep. The last time I had a “non-exhausted” night was many months ago. Prior to the insomnia, I had great sleep. Like you I watched TV in bed, and turned it off when tired and drifted into beautiful sleep. It was what relaxed me. I attempted watching TV in bed last night for the 1st time in months. It didn’t quite work, as my mind kept screaming – not good, so I finally gave up and went back into the brainless insipid routine of winding down in my lining room which feels so unnatural by the way.
Deb- With my ACT practice, I’m using a 7.5 hr sleep window (10:45 – 6:20). I watch TV on low light setting (as reading never works for me) right up to bedtime. On some nights, I’d jump into bed around 10:30 when experiencing some sleep cues. The cues are never super strong but subtle. If I wait for the cues to get stronger, they often go away completely. On other nights, though not sleepy, there is some underlying tiredness when I go to bed.
Prior to practicing ACT, I would drift into light sleep after an hour. And have spells of very light sleep during the night.
These days doing ACT however, I haven’t been dozing off as usual. In fact with the wider sleep window, my sleep pressure seems more diluted, and so has the quality of my sleep. So rather than drifting into light sleep it feels that I go into this semi-conscious (non-sleep) state where my mind is just jumping from story to story. Then I’m fully alert once the story ends, and I cycle thru these stories about 4-5 times during the night. I’m conscious that I’m not asleep the entire time.
I don’t feel anxious, but I may experience a bit of frustration in
moments later in the night (not upon getting into bed) and I try to use mindfulness to ease it. When I notice myself analyzing my sleep, I’d say- I’ll think about you thought tomorrow. This usually works, as such thoughts disappear after 5 minutes, and my mind wanders and I drift into this semi-conscious state again where my mind again wanders from story to story. I don’t always recall these stories the next morning.During the day, I am not doing a ton of mindfulness practices. The bulk of my day is spend sitting at a computer working or on meetings. My job is highly analytical so my mind is processing info a lot. I do try to slow down and turn off my mind and do at least one mindfulness exercise during the day.
Hi All,
It’s the end of my 1st week since trying ACT for the 2nd time, and I’m starting to feel discouraged again.
My sleep window is from 11- 6:20. On the 1st two nights I got some intermittent light sleep (the kind where you’re semi awake with thoughts), then a nil night, then another intermittent light sleep night, then a series of 3 nil nights (including last night)
To contextualize the above, I haven’t had restorative sleep since May. At best, I’ve had light patchy sleep here and there (about twice weekly with stretches of nil nights in between)
Since this pattern is so very different than most on here, I often feel that there’s something wrong with me. Why haven’t I gotten a single night of restorative sleep (or experienced marginal progress) after trying all these techniques for 5 months?
Suren
It’s so interesting to hear of your experience. I’m currently trying ACT so much more relaxed about my sleep window. It’s challenging to hear of your success with SRT and not want to implement it, but this time around I want to give ACT a good try. I just restarted ACT, so will resist the temptation to practice any other techniques for now.
This said, I agree about the obsessive controlling instincts. Are you able to share a link to your podcast? Debbie said it was really good. Thanks again for all the useful pointers.
Daf, Your response is very insightful. You shared that your sleep window was under 5 hours for quite some time. Sounds super strict! Can you share for how long you used the 5 hour sleep window?
Also, did you ever experience light non refreshing sleep at any point during your recovery?
Thanks Steve. Very useful to know!
There is very poor air circulation in my bedroom. Last night I booked a room in a hotel to see if that would make a difference. Was a terrible and expensive idea. So from now, I will focus on implementing ACT from the confines of my apartment.
Thanks Deb! Thanks JT! Your feedback is super encouraging. I took a trip to NJ over the weekend, which was a bit harassing on my body (especially the part where I shared a room with 3 other family members!), so I thought I’d delay resuming ACT until after trip.
I returned home yesterday evening, so last night was my 1st night resuming ACT. It was rough! Didn’t get any sleep, and didn’t practice any of the techniques in bed, which is why I’m thinking to re-listen to the book today. I also felt I was in a bit of a haze for bits of the night- like neither asleep or fully awake.
I’m also thinking of resuming journaling, as it may help me to see where there is incremental progress, which in turn may propel me onwards. Don’t know that I’m an advocate for journaling, but it could help me in the short-term.
Deb- I haven’t yet watched your video, but look forward to doing so. Steve makes a good point about setbacks diminishing over time as you heal, as it really puts the healing process in perspective, and reminds that it is a process. So hope this helps your mindset.
Steve- It’s encouraging to hear of your progress. How long have you been doing ACT? I read that you started to use a CPAP? Do you find that your sleep quality is deeper due to the CPAP? I often find the air circulation in my room to be poor and somewhat stifling.
Thanks Deb. I didn’t think of things that way, but your feedback about recovery not being non-linear makes a ton of sense.
In resuming ACT, I feel the biggest challenge will be for me to fully accept the sleepiness nights- especially given how fatigued I am at the moment. It would have been nice to recharge somehow before diving back into the ACT practice.
I’ll give Meadows book another read, and will aim to resume ACT tomorrow. Thanks again for the feedback. Helped my decision.
Hi Deb. Yes, particularly in the 1st week of the ACT practice. As things improved a bit in the 2nd week, I started to have positive expectations of improving. Then as things regressed in the 3rd week, a sleepless night became less acceptable as my body grew more fatigued.
I would very much like to give ACT a go again, and maybe stick to it for longer this time, but don’t really like the idea of hopping into bed when neither tired or sleepy. And would I be doing true ACT if I do not go to bed around a set time? And if I wait to get tired or sleepy prior to going to bed, what if I don’t feel sleep past 1am…do I keep sitting on my couch watching TV and waiting for that sleepy feeling?
Hi Deb, I responded but for some strange reason it says that my response is pending moderation.
So- the answer to your question is yes, particularly in the 1st week. But then as things improved in week 2 I developed an expectation of seeing improved results. Then by week 4 as I grew increasingly fatigued, I may have grown desperate for a bit of sleep relief.
I would like to try ACT again, but a bit concerned about getting into bed when neither tired nor sleepy. But if I don’t go to bed at a consistent time would I be doing the ACT correctly? And what if I stayed up past 1am waiting to get sleepy and didn’t, then do continue to sit on my couch waiting?
-Suren
Thanks Deb.
I’ve had a less than positive experience with sleeping pills, as I noticed that I stopped getting deep sleep immediately after their use. So now I have a real fear of these types of meds. This said, I also noticed that natural aids like melatonin have no effect on me. In fact, I tried CBD oil last night, and got no sleep relief from its use. Seems like I’ve run out of fall-back options.
Regarding my past ACT practice, after reading Guy Meadows book, I opted for a sleep window of 10:30-6. Before the sleep issues, I would go to bed at 8pm, watch tv until midnight, go to sleep and get up around 7:30am. I chose the 10:30 bedtime, as when I was doing CBT with Martin, I at times got sleepy around 10:30pm.
Further with ACT, I practiced noticing my senses twice daily and deep breathing once a day. If any negative sleep thoughts arose (at night or in the day), I’d greet and welcome them, and say, aaah- here goes that negative sleep thought again. Though, with the thought watching, I didn’t practice it quite as consistently.
In the 1st week of ACT, I was averaging 1-2 hours of non-refreshing sleep on most nights with 2 no-sleep nights. The 2nd week, I was averaging 2-3 hours of light sleep on most nights. The 3rd week, I experienced more no-sleep nights (likely 4-5), and by the 4th week it felt like the insomnia was back with a vengeance.
-Suren
