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Oh and I don’t really ever drop SRT. But yeah the odd night does come where I get say 7 hrs or more, which is over what I need. If that happens I know I’ll probably not get tired until onto early hours the following night, so I’m kind of ready for that and not surprised when it happens. Hope this helps.
Thanks Daf. Even after all this time I’m often still a victim of the “Sleepy until I get in bed” problem, where I’ll be nodding off on the couch, but when I have to get up to go walk to bed and then get IN bed, suddenly I feel more awake. Not completely wired awake, but enough to where I start having a few small, subtle anxious thoughts. These days I often think about what it would be like if I did have a television in my room and watched tv in bed before bedtime like I did for so long before I moved out. Then I could literally just click the remote and pass out. For most of my life this was the case. I’d watch tv until I was tired and then I’d be out cold eventually.
I also used to have a very serious habit of spending too much time in bed in general. It would just be my “spot” a lot, especially when still living at home. My bedroom was my one area to have some privacy and often I’d just hangout on my bed, on my laptop, talking on the phone to friends, watching tv, etc. This carried over to when I moved out too until Insomnia hit and I was told use the bed only for sleep and sex. I wonder what would happen if, now that my sleep/bed anxiety has tremendously died down, if I reverted back to the old me in spending more time in my bed, at least maybe during my hour wind down time. I know most would say that’s the ultimate no no for helping build good sleep, but I’ve just been thinking outside the box a lot lately. Any thoughts?
Burn – you mentioned how you practice watching your wakefulness and that sometimes it’s quite hard. It sounds like you are doing too much work, which will keep you awake. Try doing nothing and just let your mind wander, like in the old days before the insomnia.
Mac – when you’re not getting the email notifications of new posts, just unsubscribe from the thread, wait a couple days and then subscribe again. You’ll start getting the emails again. About always having to be sleepy enough, I think once you’re fully recovered you’ll be to fall asleep with the regular amount of sleepiness/tiredness, just like the old days before your insomnia. Also, I agree with you that we should be able to sleep in our own bed, not just on our couch, if we’re fully recovered.
Suren – what’s going on in your mind when you’re in bed? Until your mind is calm and accepting of your wakefulness, you won’t sleep. And even when you reach of the point of calmness and acceptance, it still may take some time to start sleeping better. In the book, Guy Meadows talks about Carlos who took a few weeks to learn how to relax in bed. But even though he was relaxed, it still took more time for his sleep to improve.
Mac- I’ve had insomnia for about 1.5 years. I took meds for the 1st 8 months and weaned off 5.5 months ago after starting CBT with Martin. I have been doing SRT for 5.5 months. I’d be content with having a few bad nights. Thing is, I’ve had bad nights for like 95% of this time. Which equates to me having no more than 10 nights in the last months where I didn’t wake up completely exhausted after about 1-3 hours of super light sleep. The last time I had a “non-exhausted” night was many months ago. Prior to the insomnia, I had great sleep. Like you I watched TV in bed, and turned it off when tired and drifted into beautiful sleep. It was what relaxed me. I attempted watching TV in bed last night for the 1st time in months. It didn’t quite work, as my mind kept screaming – not good, so I finally gave up and went back into the brainless insipid routine of winding down in my lining room which feels so unnatural by the way.
Deb- With my ACT practice, I’m using a 7.5 hr sleep window (10:45 – 6:20). I watch TV on low light setting (as reading never works for me) right up to bedtime. On some nights, I’d jump into bed around 10:30 when experiencing some sleep cues. The cues are never super strong but subtle. If I wait for the cues to get stronger, they often go away completely. On other nights, though not sleepy, there is some underlying tiredness when I go to bed.
Prior to practicing ACT, I would drift into light sleep after an hour. And have spells of very light sleep during the night.
These days doing ACT however, I haven’t been dozing off as usual. In fact with the wider sleep window, my sleep pressure seems more diluted, and so has the quality of my sleep. So rather than drifting into light sleep it feels that I go into this semi-conscious (non-sleep) state where my mind is just jumping from story to story. Then I’m fully alert once the story ends, and I cycle thru these stories about 4-5 times during the night. I’m conscious that I’m not asleep the entire time.
I don’t feel anxious, but I may experience a bit of frustration in
moments later in the night (not upon getting into bed) and I try to use mindfulness to ease it. When I notice myself analyzing my sleep, I’d say- I’ll think about you thought tomorrow. This usually works, as such thoughts disappear after 5 minutes, and my mind wanders and I drift into this semi-conscious state again where my mind again wanders from story to story. I don’t always recall these stories the next morning.During the day, I am not doing a ton of mindfulness practices. The bulk of my day is spend sitting at a computer working or on meetings. My job is highly analytical so my mind is processing info a lot. I do try to slow down and turn off my mind and do at least one mindfulness exercise during the day.
Suren, if you’ve been doing SRT for a legitimate 5.5 months straight and have bad nights 95% of the time, then you are doing something wrong, plain and simple. Whether you never did the correct sleep window for yourself or you’ve been breaking the window too often, etc. There is just no way. SRT done correctly will build up a sleep drive. Can you give me some details of you and your story? Age/how/when did it start, etc.
I have to disagree with you Mac. I was doing SRT for three months and after the second month, I started to get worse sleep. I would go to sleep for 3 hours and then have to get up to do SC. By the end of that third month, I was never feeling sleepy enough to get back into bed, Plus, I wasn’t even sleeping that three initial hours anymore. I was spending most of the SRT in the living room until my alarm would ring to get me up for the day. That’s why a lot of us switched over to ACT because SRT wasn’t working.
How is everyone doing? gsdmom? Deb? JT? Everyone else? I have run into some problems as I have had two straight nights of about 2.5 hours of sleep. Thankfully though, I can still function after having those two nights. Not sure what the problem is but I have to keep on track with doing the mindfulness. To be honest, setting up the appointment with the neurologist has probably affected me as I keep thinking about what she will say and that’s when the negative thoughts start hitting me. I am not using the tools to get rid of those thoughts either.I am just sitting there thinking those thoughts. One other thing I noticed. Whenever I use a new method that should help me get more sleep, it only works for awhile and then it seems my body adjusts and I start getting poor sleep again. As an example, I got the CPAP machine and started sleeping very well for about a week and then started regressing. I switched CPAP masks for a better fit and I started sleeping very good again. Then a week later, which was two nights ago, I start regressing again. It seems my body just seems to compensate after awhile to everything I do. I might not get better sleep until after I hear what the neurologist says and I can unwind from these thoughts again.
Mac- I love your directness. But prior to responding to your question, I’d like to piggyback on what Steve has shared a bit. Each time I try a new technique things seem to look up for the 1st week or two, then the technique seems to loose its effectiveness. It’s almost as though my body adjusts to the pattern and it becomes the new norm. So with CBT, while SRT initially did build my sleep drive, over time, I noticed that my body seem to adjust to having fewer hours of sleep, and sleeping for only 2-3 hrs was no longer sufficient to build my sleep drive.
I’m in my late 30s. I started using sleeping pills immediately after my sleep broke, and then was put on all kinds of antidepressants/antipsychotics for 8 months after. I noticed that my sleep quality changed when I was using sleeping pills. I’m Sasha Stephens book she mentioned that they can alter your sleep quality and affect your ability to sleep deeply, though I’d like to think not permanently(!!)
When I started CBT in May, I had good results for the 1st two weeks. I was sleeping 4-5 hrs every other night and the quality wasn’t bad. Then in the 3rd week it shifted to every 2-3 nights, then once a week. Things started to regress quickly, and at the time I was working closely with Martin, sticking to the sleep window, doing strict stimulus control, and kept on course with the program for exactly 7 weeks. The only deviation would be going into bed 30 minutes prior to my sleep window on really bad nights or accidentally napping for 30 mins-1 hr in the early morning. But this was a rare occurrence.
After 7 weeks of doing CBT, inspired by Deb’s story, I decided to gave ACT a try. When I stopped CBT I was getting about 1- 2 hrs of light sleep on most nights. After my 2nd week of ACT, I was getting 2-3 hrs of light sleep most nights, so this was promising. I felt hopeful, but then by week 3, I went to not sleeping at all.
After ACT, I tried using a blend of ACT and CBT in that I’d use a 6.5 or 7hr sleep window. and did not do stimulus control at all. I also went to bed when tired, and tried a mindfulness technique daily. I shared the outcome of this practice in an earlier thread.
Now that I’m doing ACT again, things feel very reminiscent of my initial ACT experience given the stretches of no sleep nights.
I keep thinking: should I forge forward in spite of these sleepless nights with ACT? There’s a small part of my that thinks that ACT may work best for people who are semi-recovered. Is this thinking flawed? In Meadows book he referenced a healing period of 2 months. In all fairness, I haven’t stuck to this technique for that long.
Sasha Stephens’ book is one of the very best. Glad you read it. While ACT can never hurt at any point, it’s just my opinion of course but I do at least somewhat agree that yes, you have to at least be at some point in a recovery to implement ACT as far as when it becomes your only tool. Just by reading your post I can tell you that you are nowhere near a good place with your sleep. No offense, just being brutally honest. If I were you I would implement a very strict sleep window, even if its as small as 4-5 hours to start, 12a-5a, whatever works best with your schedule, and stick to this like you’ve never stuck to anything in your life. You need to understand that SRT isn’t the be all end all, but it will at least begin to build your confidence back up which will eventually lead to you tackling the real issue which is your general sleep anxiety that has been built up.
You have what I had. A completely traumatized nervous system and your sleep arousal is becoming dominant because of this. You can and you WILL sleep perfectly fine again in due time, but it won’t be after one night, it won’t be after one week and it probably won’t even be after one month, but you’ll get there. I did. I’m not 100% clear but I’ve come a very long way from being an absolute nervous wreck over sleep. I was so afraid of the bed that I had to get out of it if I didn’t fall asleep even after just 15 minutes. Now I lay there as relaxed as I can until sleep comes because I know it will.
Tonight I want you to think and say to yourself, if you’re struggling in your bed… “This is just a traumatized nervous system. There’s nothing actually wrong with my sleep, silly. I can sleep and I will sleep, eventually.”
Mac. Many thanks for the very thoughtful response, and also for echoing my own thoughts that a more aggressive approach may be best for me given the stage of recovery that I’m in.
When I was working with Martin, I used a 6 hr sleep window while he advocated 5.5. Its seemed to work at the start so I stuck to it, so I’ve never used anything as small as 4-5 hrs. This would be challenging, but in reality my body is not generating more that 3 hrs of sleep even on my next night.
Would you also advocate for stimulus control? This is a sticky one for me, as I felt as after a while, it’s almost as though my body was waking up of its own accord to get out of bed. Prior to CBT, I would have 6-7 hrs of light uninterrupted sleep. The fragmented sleep for me only started after stimulus control.
Also, I tend to experience slept cues around 10:30 or so. With the strict SRT would you advise to disregard the sleep cues so that I can be in compliance with my selected sleep window? I also have a hard time being out of bed too early. Plus prior to the insomnia I went into bed at 7-8pm, watched TV until midnight and awoke around 7/7:30. I never felt sleepy at 10:30. This only started happening after CBT.
One other thing to point out though, while my nervous system may be a wreck, I’m never overtly anxious about not sleeping. I’m actually quite calm towards it. What I’m anxious about is the ruinous effects it’s having on my beautiful face. I also feel some unease when implementing a smaller sleep window, as at times it felt like I needed to get up when I had not too long gotten into bed, and that was a real killer! My personality is generally grounded which is a bit juxtaposed to what I’m experiencing, but I’m super analytical and have to really catch myself so as not to analyze every nuance on my sleep. I’d argue that it isn’t just my nervous system but also my sleep system which is greatly compromised. There’s a tendency in this community to chalk everything up to anxiety, but I do somehow differentiate between the sleep and nervous systems – though the two are interlinked. If it was just anxiety (and it could well be), then a high dose of Xanax should do the trick. No?
I’m thinking I could give a sleep window of 12-5 a try for a good month and see how it goes. This may be frowned upon by Sasha Stephens as she doesn’t advocate for SRT. Also, do you recommend journaling as well?
You don’t get it yet, and that’s ok. One day, you will. Your sleep system is compromised? What does this mean? You just can no longer sleep properly out of nowhere? Unless you have a broken back or something else beyond rare, it’s anxiety, even if it’s very underlying, like I still have.
Yes xanax would do the trick. Only problem with that is it’s a pill and we don’t do pills here. Everyone, including Sasha Stephens of course knows that pills are nothing but a band aid. Certainly you should never take Xanax long term for sleep imo and once off of it the underlying issues would likely arise again.
Yes I understand how it can ruin your face. Take it from me, I’m a 35 year old male and I’ve been putting concealer under my eyes for most of the last 2 years. Nothing to be proud of there. It’s what this has done to me. In general I have fair skin and there’s always been a touch of purple underneath, but after nights of bad sleep, forget about it. They’d probably send me home at work if they saw me without it covered up.
Just try and understand nothing is broken at all, inside of you. You must implement everything from stimulus control to good sleep hygiene until you barely want to post here anymore Bc your sleep is getting better. You are nowhere near there yet, but you will be in due time. No journal btw. Not a fan of those.
My sleep is starting to regress from what it was last week when I had five good days in a row. I don’t know if it was because I was getting anxious about sabotage or if it was because my confidence was increasing and then I let myself get super mad when I didn’t sleep three nights ago. What seems to work best for me is getting into bed with the mindset that I will just be calmly resting, striving to get to that “silver medal” podium (calm rest) and not jumping between bronze (anxious rest) and gold (sleep). I’m grateful when I do sleep and that I do have good recovery sleeps at least every few days, but then I am not practicing utilizing the tools as much.
In any case, I am thinking of implementing a 7-hour window today to help tighten things up. Hopefully I am not so solution-oriented that I am continuously putting my sleep on a pedestal, but it is hard to get my mind off it.
What does Sasha Stevens say about insomnia that isn’t covered in CBTi or ACTi? I’m curious but don’t really want to buy another book at this point.
Steve, I’ll bet you’ll feel better after your neurologist appointment!
Mac and Suren, good to hear you bouncing things off each other. It gives me confidence that I can get over anxiety, and that maybe a tighter sleep window will help.
Oh yeah and I hate filling out my sleep journal because it just makes me feel like I am constantly analyzing my sleep, which feels counterintuitive when I am am trying to relax about insomnia.
Hi Steve – thanks for asking. I’m doing “ok.” Unfortunately, my relapse has stretched out, due to a combination of factors. When it first started a few weeks ago, I tried to do what someone suggested which was to not take it seriously and forget about it. Well that worked for a night or two but then the worrying thoughts came back. I think I was in denial at first that I was having a relapse and didn’t want to deal with it. So I slipped back into old compensating behaviors like having a drink before bed. Then I went out of town for a few days and resorted to sleeping pills so I could enjoy my time with friends and family. I also was confused. I wondered if I had really “recovered” before or was it just a two-month long honeymoon period, believing that I was recovered. Beliefs are strong and maybe my belief that I had recovered kept me that way. Also, I wondered if I had recovered so quickly back in August (in less than two weeks) because I “believed” I had recovered. Anyway, lots of confusion. And frustration at having to deal with this still.
Finally a couple nights ago I buckled down and started practicing ACT in earnest again – no drinks, no pills – just me and the bed. The first night I didn’t sleep much. This was no surprise. In the past when I gave up my props I usually had a sleepless night. But I was calm at least. Last night I was very tired but couldn’t sleep because my mind was not relaxed. I was feeling resentful (towards whom I have no idea – maybe God) and frustrated that I have to do this again. I finally got up and read a little of Guy’s book. I was reminded of mindfulness and that I can actually let go of those thoughts and feelings if I wish. I did, relaxed, went back to bed and fell asleep.
Deb – Glad to hear you fell back to sleep again. Hopefully you will continue to do so and forget about all of the “props”. I have started practicing the tools again and trying to forget I have the appointment with the neurologist. The last two nights I was on the verge of falling asleep after only sleeping about 2.5 hours but I just couldn’t get over the hump. A lot of times, I will be half awake and for the life of me, I can’t remember who and what I was supposed to welcome. I probably should get out of bed myself for ten minutes or so and go pet the cats but the bed is just so comfortable. lol.
Thanks for advice Deb.
By watching I mean that I am not running away from wakefulness, not applying sleep effort. I am just lying in bed aiming to rest and not striving to sleep. I likely do things wrong sometimes, like watching wakefulness too hard or start expecting sleep, but I am mostly trying to just lie and rest and let go of expectation of falling asleep.
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