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Deb,
It’s not that I don’t want my mind to wander, I would love it to wander. I think that maybe in the ‘inside myself’ state I described mind is monitoring self too much.
When I gently trying to watch wakefulness my mind does wander sometimes, so perhaps I should return to that practice. I took your words seriously, that maybe I am watching and welcoming wakefulness too much, doing too much work. So I tried different practice, perhaps it was wrong decision.
JT,
It is an interesting thought about self-monitoring. Borgesbi mentioned it previously, that subtle self-monitoring was one of here roadblocks.
Just to make it more clear. I feel that this state of quiet wakefulness is giving the most rest when not sleeping. It seems that I mentally rest more compared to when I gently focus on sensations. As Deb mentioned, maybe I was working too hard on watching and accepting my wakefulness, that’s why I decided try not to do anything. My concern is that maybe going into this resting ‘inside myself’ state, I am inadvertently forcing sleep. Maybe it is a sign that I am not willing to ‘watch and welcome’ thoughts and sensations.
Any thoughts?This may sound like total overthinking, but I would be glad to hear other people’s opinion. I am still not certain whether at times I still apply some sleep effort. Last few nights I allowed my mind to totally relax while in bed. That means that I didn’t try to focus on sensation of bed or focusing on benefits of rest. I allowed myself to just relax and be quiet. In this state it feels like I just fall inside myself, and then just ‘residing’ inside of myself. No disturbing thoughts are coming, no detectable anxiety. My mind does not wander either in this state, it just sits still, quiet. Any attempt to focus on sensation of my bed feels like a mental effort, attempt to crawl from inside of myself to the outside.
Before these last few nights, what I was doing is I was trying to gently mentally focus on sensation of my bed to make sure I don’t apply sleep effort and not trying to sleep. Last few nights, when I allowed such quiet state results are mixed: one night I feel asleep late, another night I feel asleep super fast and last night I got very little sleep.Do you think I apply sleep effort, since my mind does not wonder?
Jamie,
Do you have any anxiety caused by SRT? If yes, then it could explain it: strict SRT accumulates enough sleep drive to get you to sleep, but anxiety does not allow to relax completely and hence wakes you up after core sleep demand is satisfied. If you can stably receive 4-5 hours of sleep every night, try to look at it as a positive moment and see if helps you to relax a bit and therefore start sleeping around 5 hours.
I never actually used paradoxical intention (lying in bed awake with eyes open and trying not to sleep). I was trying to understand if acceptance of wakefulness is a softer version of paradoxical intention. I now think that it is not. Now I not trying to strive for anything, not trying to fall asleep, not trying to stay awake and watch wakefulness too hard. Now I simply aim for rest at night, hopefully it will allow to re-associate night with sleep.
I don’t think anyone else in this thread discussed paradoxical intention. However, paradoxical intention method teaches us that it is our striving to sleep that can interfere with sleep. As we already know we should not strive or force sleep upon us.Dazzio,
When I tried it first time, I was super tense and was not sleeping every other night even with short sleep window. When I tried it again, I was a bit more relaxed and started getting some more consistent sleep, but my anxiety about short sleep window very still quite high, so I now try a different approach (you can ACT thread on this forum).
So for starter, ease your tension a little bit and maintain fixed 5.5 hours sleep window for a couple weeks and see how it works for you. CBTI works for many people and it may help you.And Dazzio,
Most importantly stop striving to sleep. It seems from your writing that you are very very tense now, which is understandable. Just go to bed and try to rest, do not actively try to sleep, do not try to force sleep upon yourself. Just try to calm down and aim to get some rest in your bed. With short sleep window, like 5.5 hours, you still soon start getting more consistent sleep. Expanding this sleep window will be another challenge, but you should at least be getting consistent core 5 hour sleep if 1) you stick with this sleep window; 2) if you are more or less calm in bed and 3) you not trying to force sleep mentally. CBTI is not just about sleep restriction, it also includes sleep education. You can sign up for Martin free sleep education emails to learn more.
Dazzio,
It’s not recommended to go below 5-5.5 hours sleep window. Just stick with 5-5.5 hours window CONSISTENTLY for a while, couple weeks at least. As you can find in CBTI success stories on this forum, it may take some time to see the results, definitely more than few days. Just STICK with 5-5.5 hours window, use alarm clock to raise you up, and your sleep drive will be building up. Do not go for 3 hours sleep window.
And read CBTI success stories on this forum. You will see that for many people it takes time to see the results.Thanks for advice Deb.
By watching I mean that I am not running away from wakefulness, not applying sleep effort. I am just lying in bed aiming to rest and not striving to sleep. I likely do things wrong sometimes, like watching wakefulness too hard or start expecting sleep, but I am mostly trying to just lie and rest and let go of expectation of falling asleep.I am still working on acceptance of wakefulness, which is the key for me. I think I overcame my my acquired habit of mental sleep effort, and now I am practicing just watching my wakefulness. It is quite hard sometimes. I know that if I overcome this obstacle my sleep will be normal. And because of this knowledge, sleep anticipation kicks in every now and then and becomes hard to let go.
Steve and gsdmom,
Thank you for your support.
ACT is indeed good to overcome anxiety, but my sleep effort is so far hard to eradicate. I thought that at some point I may need to implement good dose of SR to retrain from sleep effort and overthinking. I was thinking about Matin’s recent interview with Nick Wignall, about ACT being next level after CBTI. Indeed people who benefited the most from ACT so far are Deb and Borgesbi, who both worked with Martin for good amount time before switching to ACT. Perhaps, good dose of SR can help me retrain from sleep effort.Hi Steve,
I am sleeping about 7 hours on good nights and usually 0 hours on bad ones. I am not planning to schedule another session yet. I think I understand my major issues: sleep effort and little bit of frustration. I don’t know if Dr. Kat can be helpful at this point.
I am still stuck in a pattern of sleeping only every other night. Not sure why. Anxiety is close to zero. Perhaps little bit of frustration at day time contributes and I suspect that I apply small mental sleep effort which is hard to catch. I seemingly didn’t get any sleep today, but I don’t remember thinking about anything or worrying at night. Perhaps little bit of frustration at day time contributes and I suspect that I still apply small mental sleep effort which is hard to catch in the middle of the night.
