Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Hi Frozen Sun,
I’m surprised your therapist has not heard of Cognitive Behaviour Therapy as it is the leading “talking therapy”. Also, if you google it, you will find literally millions of results. You can find out what it is for yourself and start practising it, don’t wait for the therapist. It’s really about positive thinking.
Thanks Delv. Yes, anyone who has ever been told that they were sleeping by someone else (when they though they weren’t) needs to seriously question the accuracy of their sleep records.
This, of course, is a huge weakness of diary self- reporting in SRT (though I am a fan of SRT, but one must appreciate its limitations).
Re GABA, well done… but my research seemed to show that like melatonin tabs / tryptophan?, one cannot gainsay the body’s ability to produce the sleep hormone. I tried 5HDP and melatonin and neither worked for me in the long term.
The only thing that’s helped me is stimulus control and SRT (in my case to less than 6 hrs net a night, after urine wake ups!) and mirtazapine taken 1 hour before intended sleep time. I’m weaning off mirtazapine now – on only 3.75mg a night and skipping some nights too.
Plus a bit of mindfulness helps too – when I cant sleep right away.
One thing I wonder is how can you be sure about how much sleep you have had.
Last night was a good case in point. I fell asleep in front of TV and my wife and son tell me I was asleep for at least 45 mins at 11pm – snuffling and snoring. But I was sure I had not slept.
As the night went on, I continued downstairs on couch (now on my own) and felt I did not sleep until at least 5am, and even then it seemed like short sleeps for 20 mins or so, then waking. (I only know for sure I slept then because I can recall the dreams).
Overall it feels like I had about 2 hours sleep, maybe a bit more.
But given that I could have sworn I did not sleep at 11pm, but I can take my wife and sons word for it, how can I be completely sure I got no sleep between midnight and 5am? I can’t recall dreams then, but that does not mean I did not sleep. I looked at clock every 45 mins or so, sure (yes I know one should not do that!), but I could not 100% hand on heart says I did not sleep during this time.
So how is it you are all so sure of your sleep amounts?
I wonder if some folks here could be seriously underestimating time spent sleeping – which is something I think that sleep trials have proved can happen often.
BTW how do you cut a pill in thirds? I have a pill cutter, but it is hard to do other than 1/2s or 1/4s with it..
Totally agree Delv,
Very very occasionally I take Zopilcone too. And like you I think small dose is better. When I take 7.5mg I only ever get 3 maybe 4 hours on it and feel slightly depressed in morning of next day. (Is that an effect of the drug or is it because I hate taking such a drug, don’t know!)
But if I cut pill up and take 3.75mg, I get same sleep and feel less down.
But as I say, I only take it on v occasional basis, when I am unable to sleep at all and it is 3am say, and I also have something on the next day that is big or I want to do really well…..
Think some people who post here would do better if they accepted / realised that sleep will come in the end, so to be patient and accepting and just push through,… also maybe stop trying to measure it to death…. and start living as best they can.
I really recommend Jon Kabat Zinn and his Seven Attitudes of Mindfulness video to everyone.
Update.
I seem to be doing OK now.
In the past, had up to 9 nights of nil sleep a month.
Now it is down to just one or two nil sleep nights a month since Feb….. Very pleased. (It’s now end June)
I keep my sleep amount down to 5 to 6 hours. (Varies from 4.5 hrs to around 6.5hrs, but I don’t slavishly record it). This 5-6 hours means I have enough sleep for the day and feel refreshed but by the next evening there is plenty of sleep drive too.
Have relaxing evenings and only close eyes when really tired, usually about 1030 to 1130pm. If I sleep on couch, so what, I’m sleeping. But I don’t obsess about times slept for too much. My “older man’s bladder” means I’m up for a P three times a night, so it’s pretty easy to keep to less than 6 hours, because of the wake ups. Once I have got to sleep once and woken for a P, I’m lucky that usually I’m OK to sleep again, even if the need to have a P wakes me up. (I have a pot by couch/ bed, so I don’t have to walk to bathroom or open eyes!)
No real stressors in my life – I’m my own boss and things going well in life.
Was on mirtazapine 15mg, but now down to just 3.75mg (a quarter of a dose, very small dose!) and sometimes when I feel really sleepy I’m starting to increasingly not take it at all. When I have taken it, it’s key to take at least 45 mins before you’d ideally like to go to bed, folks.
Think my big epiphany was finally realising that my sleep was not totally broken – and if I did not sleep at all one night, I would always sleep the next night – with no need for drugs. Took me 2 and a half years to see that! Once I realised that was true, I relaxed a lot, I think. That helped massively. Plus the sleep restriction – because that gives me just enough sleep that I need, plus means I’m getting real tired by 930ish at night. Plus accepting the bad days and just carrying on and a positive attitude, CBT style, thanks to me dear wife and friends. It’s got me through.
Indeed, they are not rare. When my own insomnia was at its worst I’d have 8 or 9 nil-sleep nights in a single month. I realise some folks have even more than that.
Yes, I quite agree. I have had regular nil sleep nights and I do think there is a heck of a difference between folks who get 4 or 5 hours regularly (some regular poster here are like that) and say they have insomnia and those of use who have suffered nil sleep nights.
Agree too with your advice – just try and let go of the struggle. Sleep will come in the end… if not tonight, or next night, then the night after that. Have faith! When it comes, try and keep sleep limited in duration. My target sleep is about 5 or 6 hours. Any more than that and I’m at risk of not have enough “sleep drive” to sleep the next night. Also have a real slow wind down two hours before bed when you dim light and watch TV.
Good luck. I feel for you. It will pass, I promise.
Hi Mac,
For me , that would be a more than adequate night.
What made it a bad night? Was it because you felt bad the next day? And if so, are you sure that the feeling bad was a function of the sleep you got / didn’t get? Or is there something else going on? I thought you used to be like me and got nil-sleep nights, (sorry if I’m confusing you with someone else), in which case getting 5 or 6 hours ought to be bliss, surely.
I still get nil-sleep nights, where I don’t sleep at all, but I’m just grateful I get a lot less of them than I used to before I started SRT/SC and ACT etc.
Average sleep for someone in their late 5os like me is 6 to 7 hrs, I understand.
Thanks Martin, but I cannot identify with those.
I only go to bed when sleepy enough.
I limit my sleep to no more than 6 hours and always get up at about the same time.
I’m not especially anxious, have no real worries. I’m often surprised that my insomnia is worse when I have absolutely no worries at all.
Great site this, by the way. But I’m always amazed by people who “only” get 5 hours a night on a regular basis, but are convinced they have a problem, (I guess if they think they have, then they have and one cannot dismiss their experience)…whereas there is another poster who cannot sleep for days on end….Such different experiences, it is fascinating!
Hi Martin – and thanks for the comments
I don’t really think stress is an issue for me, very much. Nor an overactive / racing mind.
Hi Mac,
NP – Happy to help.
Basically I just try to use stimulus control and a little bit of SRT. I actually watch TV and fall asleep on couch. Only try to sleep when tired.
Re SRT I’m lucky? because I wake up 3 or 4 times in night to use the toilet, so its easy to keep sleep restricted. Even so, once I have had 5 or 6 hours, I simply cannot sleep anymore, even if the night before was a nil sleep night.
On caveat… I’m not over-sold on the idea on getting out of bed after 15 mins if one cannot sleep, though I would probably after say an hour. I think this must be up to you. I try to accept and be “OK” with being awake.
Like Deb, I also use an accepting approach to things (ACT / Mindfulness) it’s the bleeding same thing really. I recommend to google “7 Attitudes of Mindfulness” by Jon Kabat Zinn video on youtube plus get the book, “The Power of Now” by Eckhart Tolle. That is as good as anything I have read or seen.
I do think that insomnia sufferers tend to be rather controlling, probably usually successful people. I don’t mean to upset people but that is how we often come over. It was certainly true of the folks I met on the courses for insomnia I have been on. (I found my insomnia was worse than others, so would avoid in future).
But it’s our over emphasis on CONTROL – and our frustration that our control over sleep is limited – that sets us out from other folks.
Example – If my wife had some affliction that meant she had to do some things at certain times and record the outcomes, she just WOULD NOT do it…or not do it well…… and yet, all us sufferers from not sleeping seems to know how many hours we took to fall asleep, what our ratios are etc. We are actually a little bit nuts, a little bit hypochondriac, maybe. There is nothing wrong with that – it makes us the people we are.
My controlling nature comes from in part my childhood. But it is there and real.
My wife loves me for who I am and admires my drive to get things done, my control and at times, my party spirit.
But all this controlling can be an impediment, when things are to some extent out of your control – like sleep.
But self -recognition helps one get by.
Mac,
You are very similar to me. I’ve had it for 2 years and 9 months, on and off. Slowly getting better. In March, April and May I had just one nil sleep night in each of those three months. Yipee!
But in June I have had 2 nil sleep nights so far.
Still, it is all better than last October when I had 9 nil sleep nights… which was v frustrating because that came after my longest good spell of going 7 weeks with no nil sleep night at all.
If I get 4 hrs I feel fine, just great.
But normally my pattern is either nil sleep at all (now rarer than before) or somewhere between 5 and 6 hours.
It is tough but you just have to accept it and do the right things – the relaxing down time, not eating late and all that good stuff for the rest of your life.
But even doing that you may, like me, still get the odd night of no sleep at all for ABSOLUTELY NO REASON AT ALL.
Some research I posted on another thread said it is in our neurochemical make up.
Like you, I feel awful after a nil sleep night. But then I’m lucky enough to always follow that with a night where I get at least 5 hours and I feel great again.
Fact is you (all of us) have to just live with it and do the SC stuff and SRT to minimise the frequency of the duff nights. For me, that is my reality.
But there are worse things one could have and suffer from. That is what I tell myself.
Some friends with cancer, they have to face feeling lousy every day and with the uncertainty of it not being cured. Whereas I have good days that far outnumber the bad. I wouldn’t swap with them, so I am grateful.
Sorry, here are the links…Lots more on line too
Hi Slarus,
I used to worry like that too. I still do a bit.
I often sleep on couch. So what, it’s as good as bed!
But in the scenario you describe I will tell myself this…”Your body has not forgotten how to sleep. It is just not ready to right now. But when you are tired enough it WILL sleep, because your sleep function knows that your body needs the sleep. So, it will trump any anxiety you have….And you will fall asleep. So be patient and in the meantime as Martin says in one post… Just try to relax and see what happens. Say this: If I don’t fall asleep tonight, it’s no big deal, I’ll still get some rest. ”
I hope this helps.
