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@anmareta thanks for that ! Did you manage to find the zoom link, it mentioned it was in the BIO ?
Thanks @anmareta ! In your journey did it take time to even get more than the 1 to 3 hours ? I’ve been in that pattern for 3 days now. I feel like my sleep drive is almost non-existent anymore ! I feel fatigued for sure, which I think I associate with sleepiness but after lying in bed for an hour plus (no anxiety), I get no sleep.
I’ve been practicing sleep restriction more dillegitly, but does anyone find even with this they’re only getting a few hours of sleep (1 to 3), I go to bed fairly tired, but cannot manage to fall asleep for hours (I get out a few times) but it causes so much frustration as I go to the bed fairly calm to no avail, when I see I haven’t slept say an hour later the frustration really starts to build up.
@R.E.M thank you so much for your contribution, I think those will be very useful. I’m also going to take meditation seriously now, as in, spending the time to get used to it,
Thanks a ton @anmareta. I feel we’re on the same page and know what to do here 🙂 It’s just a question of implementation at this point. It’s always so much more difficult day after a bad sleep, or in your case, two days 🙂 (which is awesome btw!)
btw at least for me “bad sleep” usually implies a nill-night, or very broken. If I get 3 hours straight I’m usually good.
I’ve seen the sleep school app before but didn’t purchase anything, do you think the guided meditations are worthwhile ?
@Manfred, great article, very much hit home and gets to the root of the issue, it all comes back to the fear of not sleeping; Maybe I’ve improved, and I’m no longer scared of a single restless night, but I am clearly very scared of two, implying the fear is still there and that’s what needs to be tackled.
Is the book you are referring too:
“The Savvy Insomniac: A Personal Journey through Science to Better Sleep”Have you read it, any opinions / thoughts ?
I do think at the end of the day, ACTi, DARE, are all variants on the same thing i.e. facing the fear and not hiding/running away from it.
@Manfred you put it so well re: “learning is lost” i.e. it feels like you have taken a huge step back.
If I step back now that I got some sleep (forcefully : – ), I believe the anxiety is in fact two fold:
1) I can remember back to when I had sleepless nights prior to “insomnia” (e.g. staying up doing something fun, work, …), you do feel a bit restless and heart racing too from what I recall ? It’s just a symptom of lack of sleep ? Of course in your mind though you’re not at all thinking it’s a problem.
2) The fear that if I don’t sleep again tonight tomorrow will be terrible (this of course is the learnt fear/feeling from insomnia).So given 1) is a natural response, add the anxiety from 2) I think this is why it’s very difficult to battle.
You could be right though, “stay awake” even if it’s the 2nd day without sleep until you feel tired enough and anxiety subsides.
@anmareta thanks so much for the feedback. @Manfred I can relate so much to your post.
I had a difficult night, and I chalk it all up to anxiety, what happened was after a poor night (just about no sleep) on Saturday (that I handled well though though using CBTi techniques and mindfulness), Sunday was full of anxiety about the nights sleep that accelerated throughout the day. I went to bed and all I could feel was the anxiousness (I’m sure coupled with the regular effects of no/little sleep), as much as I tried I’d drift out for a few minutes and then wake up with tightness in the chest and a wakeful feeling. After a few hours I gave in and took medicine.
I feel all the techniques I’ve learned go out the window on the after no sleep as the day goes on. I know I need to conquer this as the next step of my journey.
I really do appreciate all these messages I find them really helpful. Great idea @R.E.M in regards to a CBT-I support thread, I guess that’s what this entire forum is though 🙂 But I agree it’s really nice to be going through this all with others. Also, R.E.M, your sleep window is identical to mine 🙂 Though I’m trying to make it earlier.
Thanks for the tips @ammareta in regards to yoga nidra I’ll look into that. Like you I’m actually at my worst (feeling depressed and anxious) on the mornings after a bad night sleep (not so much during the night it self as I can stay somewhat calm now).
In terms of ACTi + CBTi, I feel if I can lay in bed, calm, relaxed, also tired (i.e. potential for sleep) I’ll stay in bed now, but if I feel anxious at all or “awake” I leave in hopes of a reset.
Thanks @anmareta ! I do find venting (or just sharing) actually helps a lot, particularly on the hard days 🙂 Really good point about Moms as well, they’re just amazing.
I’ve only been going through this for about 1 month now, so I can only imagine what it’s like for folks who’ve been dealing with it longer term. I’ve been trying a mixture of ACT/CBT for about a week now, though there are some contradictory elements between the two (e.g. stimulus control i.e. staying in bed vs getting out). I know what you mean about medicine as well, though I don’t find Trazodone does a whole lot for sleep but it does help with anxiety to a certain extent.
I actually started the online course a while back 🙂 So I finished it but I wasn’t really committed until more recently.
Hey @R.E.M @anmareta, neither of you are alone in this 🙂
In fact I similarly go through a similar pattern, it’s a bit different i.e. a few decent nights of 5 to 6 hours followed by a sleepless night, usually followed by a few more poor nights (i.e. a few hours) rinse repeat.
I do think ACT can play a big role in helping mood, but I have to admit the nights of so sleep, the days after are really hard with increased anxiety, still trying my best to cope and find techniques on how to handle it, I know what I should do, which is nothing :), but it’s easier said then done.
Best of luck to all !
Thanks a lot @Hbhigg ! Exactly, once you’ve done your research you know what to do 🙂 I still enjoy and take comfort in the success stories though on the bad days and find they help with anxiety.
Wishing you all the best.
I think my post was blocked because I shared a link so let me rewrite it here:
Hello @jaran, really sorry to hear about your story ! Sadly, I had known a few people in the past with insomnia and at the time my “helpful” advice was along the lines of “don’t worry we all get bad nights of sleep” or “get some catch up sleep if you can” … which is the exact advice I’m now given by friends and the like 🙂
I’m not entirely surprised you didn’t hear about cbt-i, at least directly. I say this particularly because I was prescribed trazadone. That’s not to say I don’t think medicine has a place and a role to play but it can definitely feed into and build the “there is something wrong with my sleep”.
I actually think sleep hygiene can be a dangerous and slippery slope for anyone with insomnia ironic as that sounds. For anyone without it, sure, it may help them feel more rested but for us it’s another part of “sleep effort”. I actually had a whole song and dance I did a few hours before bed; I’d only sit up on the couch, have the lights at a certain level, watch only particular tv shows, and drink a specific tea. One night recently I was tired of all this and decided to do whatever I wanted, and, I slept, slightly better than those other nights 🙂 Which really helped enforce how all these steps have no impact or a negative impact at worst on sleep.
I do really hope you find some success with CBTi and wish you all the best. Know that I’m always here if you want to talk or just share.
Hey @Jaran ! Great to hear from you. Your initial journey was uncanningly similar to mine, including the exact youtube video you cited (which I agree is great) and the 2 week program 😉 But then again, I suspect many go down this very path.
Let me answer your question on those books first; I’ve read them both fairly thoroughly and more books/articles/videos I didn’t mention. Honestly, given the amount of research I suspect you put into the subject you probably don’t need the books at all but let me make a few generic comments on the majority of the books on the subject, as they all go something like this (though not all in this order):
1) Introduction to the authors history with the subject
2) Background on sleep (to varying degrees of technicality), for example, the different stages, why it’s important, why the amount of sleep is not as important as often cited, history of sleeping pills, academic research in the area (or lack thereof) so on …
3) Some content (again to varying degrees) on sleep hygiene, to name a few examples; bedroom temperature, light, diet, …
– A note on this, everything you will read you will have heard before, there will be nothing new or interesting here … but that’s harmless …4) Some content on the mental side of the equation, this is where the approach varies (though, at least in my opinion, to a lesser degree than most make out) depending on whether the book leans toward cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) or acceptance and commitment therapy (ACT).
5) Some content on the physical side of the equation, for example sleep restriction and stimulus control, tracking sleep (e.g. sleep diaries) often books that tend to promote ACT put a smaller emphasis on this.
So you can see after you’ve read one, there is a very large element of diminishing returns as you read more. I’m not going to recommend one book over the other as they both have there place and are interesting reads; What I’ll say is “say good night to insomnia” leans toward the CBT approach whereas the “the sleep book” is heavily ACT based. Also, be careful picking up a book with the mindset “this one will solve all my problems”, particularly given the amount of research you’ve done, there will only be so much new content.
The one thing I’ll say though is if you feel the need to research (which I completely get given my first post : – ), in many ways I’d strongly recommend reading a book (any of them, and multiple of them if need be) over reading forums or the like. Like you, I often did just this late at night and while many posts and stories are greatly helpful others are very much the opposite (at no fault of the author at all, we’re all just trying to get help and help others). I wonder if this story will be familiar; I’ll start reading posts / topics on the many message forums on the topic and at first they will be very reassuring and in fact help me relax, but then I’ll come across a post (someone’s situation, something someone fears, something someone is trying) that starts to cause immense anxiety.
You’ll probably be told if you’re practicing stimulus control (i.e. getting out of bed due to a lack of sleep and anxiety) do something you find fun/relaxing, but I know this is so much easier said than done, so this is where a book / success story is much more appropriate.
My personal story on ACT/CBT; I found the concepts of ACT fascinating and was drawn to them, and I tried initially, but I don’t think I was ready 🙂 … the “physical” elements of CBTi (i.e. sleep restriction and stimulus control) are easy to understand and follow (not to say they are easy to implement ), even the mental element (i.e. challenging, altering thoughts) as well.
I feel people who start with CBTi and manage to increase their sleep confidence (which is the key at the end of the day) unknowingly start incorporating elements of ACTi whether they’ve heard of them or not naturally 🙂 … to be clear this is my very uneducated take on the matter but what I’ve seen through endless forum posts and success stories.
