[Martin Reed]

One thing I will add to this discussion is that it’s rarely a good idea to try another program, seek advice from another therapist or coach, engage in another course, or even do excessive amounts of sleep research if you are already engaged in a CBT-I program or coaching course.

That’s because everyone who practices CBT-I techniques has their own implementation philosophy, makes slight tweaks to the techniques, and implements different components at different times.

So, if you follow advice from different books, courses, programs, etc, all at the same time, you can end up with seemingly conflicting information and this can increase the likelihood that you will stop implementing certain techniques that will work if given enough time and commitment. It can also plant seeds of doubt, leading to wavering commitment, further reducing the effectiveness of the overall techniques.

In effect, the myriad techniques and advice become overwhelming and risk moving you back to square one as you try too many techniques at once, and become confused about what you should be doing, and when.

In my course, I cover relaxation/mindfulness/acceptance in detail in Session 4. I leave it relatively late in the course because relaxation and acceptance is a skill that requires practice — and implementing sleep restriction and stimulus control (in my opinion) tends to lead to faster improvements in sleep efficiency and helps begin the process of relearning to associate the bed with sleep rather than wakefulness.

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[Daf]

Hi Martin,

I think the only real key difference between Meadows and the traditional approach is that he’s softer on the idea of bed only for ahem, adult activities and sleep. Plus, and more importantly, he’s against getting up every 15 mins if one cannot sleep.

Otherwise, I think adding mindfulness (esp acceptance) is the key add-on with him.

But I agree with you. one needs to keep practising this acceptance approach – not easy  – and bring it into your whole life.

Like Deb and Mac, me and all insomnia sufferers, we do find this aspect hard to do. Insomnia people so like to be in control (a point / fact verified by Chris Winter in his book, The Sleep Solution) – which is why “Acceptance” for us as a concept is hard.  We get it, we just find it hard to do!

Deb and Mac, your last two or three posts on here could have been written by me! You are exactly like me in terms of how you so want to turn off the rising anxiety, but in practice, even when you are really being mindful, it is so darned hard to do in the middle of the night when you’ve been awake for 3,4 hours, or as in my case, sometimes, all bleedin’ night!

But by sharing experiences, we will get there. So good to read comments by people whose experiences are so close to mine. That is very comforting indeed – and I wish more people would enjoy the benefit of this site!

[Deb]

The last two nights I tried to stay in bed and implement mindfulness instead of getting up and it was a total bust! Saturday night I lay in bed until at least 2:00 before finally falling asleep. Yesterday I was wiped out all day. Hate that. Then last night I lay there until 3:00 until finally giving up and getting up. Went back to bed around 3:30 and fell asleep maybe around 4:00. So two days in a row of total exhaustion. Going back to SC.

ACT intuitively makes sense because we want to get back to being comfortable with lying in bed instead of being anxious. As I said before, I always used to spend at least 30 minutes or more in bed before falling asleep, so I’d like to be able to get back to that. But I think you would need a professional to help you do ACT the right way so that you don’t spend the entire night laying in bed and never falling asleep, which I felt I could have easily done if I had stayed in bed all night.

Yes this is confusing and frustrating, and it has placed seeds of doubt in my mind – about both methods! But I will go back to doing what I was doing with the SR and SC and hope that over time that my average of 2 bad nights a week will go down. Of course I’ve probably already ruined that for this week. Since I already had two bad night first thing this week, now I need 5 good nights in a row to just keep my average up!

[Daf]

Last night nil sleep all night for me. Awful and feel sick and with a tight chest today, as per usual after a sleepless night.

Horrible!

[Daf]

Deb,

At lease you are getting some sleep (I recall, I think, that before you had nights, like me, when you got nil sleep – i.e. awake all night??)

This must be pleasing to have progressed on from that…..?   Baby steps?

(Just trying to look on the bright side for you!)

[Deb]

Yes, slept last night after two bad nights. I feel for you!

[delv-x]

For me I do both but I do hate SC. For me it depends on the time I wake up. If I wake up at 3 AM and know I can’t sleep then I go out of bed and wait and try again. If it’s 5:30 and have to be up at 7:00, I just figure Ill just stay in bed and hope I sleep again. Sometimes I do. It’s light sleep but I dream in and out but it is sleep. Other times I just lay and relax and not sleep.

I wish there was some consistency. I was on a decent sleep streak the past week or so and last night was a little crappy. I got a 4.5 hour block in so it wasn’t awful but by no means good. One sleep at a time.

[Daf]

Deb and Delv, am I right in thinking you both used to have nil sleep night – no sleep at all?

[Mac0908]

I’ve been on and off the last week or so as far as good and bad nights go, but the most important thing is that my belief that I can sleep again is getting better. This is a result of over the last month here in 2019 having what I feel are more good nights than bad. That might be around only 60% good nights, but I can tell you that in the few months prior to me beginning my light SRT, the bad nights absolutely outweighed the good. This is a powerful thing to think about. I am getting better in my opinion. Maybe not crazy fast, but I am. if there’s one thing I concluded in my 2+ years of this its that there is absolutely positively no quick fix or no overnight sudden “I’m better!” situation. Our nervous systems have been traumatized by a sleep fear and it is integrated into our brains. It’s our job to slowly but surely get it out, even when its mostly underlying which I feel is my case. For example when I go to sleep at night now, for the most part I’m cool and calm. But I still continue to have erly awakenings before my alarm. So something is definitely still there. But it’s a lot better than what it once was, without question.

My sleep anxiety has dropped overall, even if it’s been the tiniest bit, and that’s alright enough for me. That’s really the most important thing of course. The anxiety. The fear. Even through some of the bad nights, if you can push it aside and think back to the better nights you’ve been having, it will help ease you from feeling like a zombie some days. You have to be strong. You have to believe. It’s definitely not an easy thing to get over, at least not for a chronic case. Good luck to everyone. Going to take a break from here for at least a week or two. Will report back.

[Deb]

Mac – glad you’re doing better overall. Will look forward to hearing from you on how it’s going after a week or two.

Daf – I’ve had only one no sleep night since I started this program. That was 3 weeks ago. Before the program, yes, I had a lot of no sleep nights. I had one stretch of 9 days with 4 of them no sleep nights and the rest just a few hours. I was a mess and ready for the mental hospital! I signed up with Martin right after that because I had reached my limit. Daf – maybe it’s time for you to get some professional help instead of just doing this on your own. What you’re doing does not seem to be working very well. How about contacting Guy Meadow’s school, since you feel more of an affinity for his approach? Like I said yesterday, when I tried to practice his stuff on my own, lying in bed and being mindful, I just ended up laying there half the night until 3:00. If I hadn’t gotten up I surely would have stayed awake all night. So I would definitely not try to implement his program without professional help. Maybe have just one session with one of their professionals and see how it goes. You might gain some valuable insight into what’s going wrong and where you need to focus your attention. Then you could share what you’re learning and help all the rest of us!

 

[Deb]

Mac – A thought just occurred to me. I wonder if Sasha Stephens improvement was gradual like yours, and maybe that’s why she didn’t talk about her recovery in the book. She didn’t want to discourage people by saying it can take a few months or longer, unlike others who promise recovery after just 5 or 6 weeks. She knew that she had the willpower and determination (like you do) to keep going because she had suffered from insomnia for 15 years and there was no turning back for her.

[Daf]

Thanks for all the kind comments. Some useful stuff there, much appreciated.

Re treatments, I have had two sets of group courses (each over 6 weeks) with different parts of our health service, mostly CBT-I focussed – and some personal sessions with Mind, part of our NHS. I went to a day school with Guy Meadows and last year had about 15 hours with a private therapist and another load of sessions with a meditation teacher. Oh, and a 6 weeks group mindfulness course. I have suffered for 2 and a half years

[Deb]

I can see that you are trying really hard to do the right things and get the right help, Daf, and my heart goes out to you. I purchased Guy Meadow’s course and went through most of it over the weekend. So that’s probably equivalent to the day school. Yet when I tried to implement it, it was a total bust. Were your 15 hours with one of their therapists? If not, you might have not gotten the therapy you needed.

[Daf]

Hi Deb,

No it was with a private therapist, not connected to Meadows.

The Guy Meadows course I went on was a waste of time. It was in London  for one day. They  just basically went though his book. No added value at all, no group discussions. I had read the book, already (was the only one who had in the group!), so no value to me at all.

[Deb]

I guess I’m just a strong advocate of going to the best professionals, who have expertise in the particular area we’re struggling with. I’m a marriage coach and I’ve had clients tell me all the time that they wish they had come to me first instead of wasting their time and money with regular counselors who had no training or expertise in the area of marriage.

So although it’s probably more expensive to go to the experts and it may not be covered by insurance, in the long run it saves us money when we think of all the time, energy and productivity we’re losing due to sleepless nights.

Maybe you could contact one of Guy Meadow’s professionals or even contact Martin. Tell him specifically what you’ve tried and what you’re doing and ask him if he thinks he could help you or not. He might be able to offer you some valuable insight. The nice thing about Martin is that you can contact him any time if you have a question or struggle, unlike a regular therapist who you might see just once a week. He gets back to people very promptly.

[Author]

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