[Deb]

Odinsky – Wow! You really had a major breakthrough! You had to go through a lot though. But it sounds like it was surely worth it. It’s amazing how sometimes the light bulb just goes on and we finally really “get” something. I’m glad you never quit and didn’t let those negative thoughts take over. And yes sometimes things have to get worse before they get better. We’re so tempted to give up, but the breakthrough is right around the corner if only we persevere. Thank you for being an inspiration.

Mike – it sounds like you’re on the right track! Glad you had a good night and fell asleep so quickly. Just one comment about mindfulness in case you don’t already know this. After you use mindfulness to let go of any anxiety then just lay there and do nothing. Because if you’re still doing mindfulness, you’re “doing something” and won’t fall asleep. Maybe you already know this. Just wondering, how long have you had insomnia and is it sleep onset, sleep maintenance or both?

Mac – how are you doing? Are you going to the office now? Has your sleep adjusted to this?

[MM]

Hi, Deb-

Good point about mindfulness. I hadn’t thought of it that way. It sounds like consciously doing nothing after mindfulness would be helpful. Increasingly I feel like I have the ability to do nothing in bed. I am guessing that’s how normal sleepers do it before they drift off, I don’t know!

I’ve had insomnia for 35 years. It started in my early twenties when I was taking xanax for depression/anxiety. I must have had rebound from the xanax and then it became a thing when my anxiety attached to the insomnia. For years, it was just sleep onset insomnia and then at some point it became maintenance insomnia so yes I have both.

Last night was much worse. I had some legitimate and rather intense new worries and I was having problems dealing with those thoughts. At one point I did try welcoming the thoughts and was very surprised to find my body relaxing. My muscles were relaxed but I still felt wired. This seems like progress.

-Mike

[Deb]

Wow! That’s a long time to have insomnia. That’s great that you’re getting better at “doing nothing” in bed. That’s the key. Once I learned how to do this consistently, then I started to fall sleep again. I had sleep onset and could go for hours without falling asleep. Yes it definitely sounds like you’re making progress.

[gsdmom]

Odinsky – I’m so happy you are able to sleep better, and turned a negative experience into something beneficial you can use for life! Mindfulness and acceptance have helped me quite a bit too. Yesterday I was having a skin treatment that can be painful and usually recommend taking a Norco and Valium before treatment. There was a glitch at the pharmacy so I didn’t get the Valium and just started with 1 Norco. During the procedure I practiced mindfulness techniques, had little pain and didn’t need to stop and take a break like most patients do. The nurse said I was her first patient who stayed so calm, and had no anxiety during treatment, she finished 30 minutes early. I know what you mean by being able to find benefits sitting at a traffic light, for me just relaxing and maybe looking at the beautiful green tree colors against the sky which has different shades of blue throughout the day.

This week has been bad, however I’d say for the last month I sleep good about 3/4 of the time, and 2-3 months ago I slept OK 2/3 of the time. I’ve been intentionally going to bed earlier, turning off the TV earlier and often getting up to 9 hours of sleep some nights. My schedule changed this week, my seasonal job was over, my home life is kind of toxic, so I have to make some adjustments, but very confident I’ll get back to sleeping better. Thanks for your update, and so glad you mentioned the Tolle book! I randomly read something of his yesterday and thought of readiing some more and after reading your post, will definitely try the audio book!

[gsdmom]

Hi Mike – FYI, I’ve been trying to practice ACT for almost 1 year. Just be patient with the process. I had many setbacks, but I keep trying. At first I found myself focusing on mindfulness too much at bedtime, and what Deb mentioned if you are thinking about that, well then your mind is active and you won’t sleep. So there would be nights when i wouldn’t sleep at all, then the next night I’d sleep for 7 hours, then the following night no sleep, etc, a pattern for a short time. But by relaxing in bed I did have more daytime energy, which was a huge benefit for me. I found practicing mindfulness during the day rather than before bed was helpful. Also listening to guided meditiations, there are many apps and videos on YouTube. One of my favorites sources if from the Mindful Movement. Due to Covid regulations, this is probably not available, but I found acupuncture helped reduce some of my anxiety.

[MM]

Deb- Thanks, I will be following this thread and will update in a couple of weeks. One quick question. With “thought noticing” it seems like the idea is to put a little space between you and the thought, to see it simply as brain chatter and that you don’t need to take it all that seriously. With the techniques that involve “welcoming” it seems more like exposure. That you are facing the thoughts to lose your fear of them. Is this how you view the two types of techniques and if so how did use them? For instance did you start with thought noticing and then if you found the thoughts overwhelming move on to the welcoming techniques?

gsdmom- Hi, thanks for commenting. That’s interesting about having more daytime energy from learning to rest better in bed. I read that in the book but wouldn’t have guessed that it would have made a big difference. Are you also sleeping better after doing ACT?

[Deb]

Mike – that’s right about thought noticing. With welcoming, it’s more like neutralizing them. You imagine them like a cartoon character and then they are funny or you feel sympathy for them. I didn’t have to use either method much because I knew how to get to the point of laying there in bed and doing nothing. What I mostly did when my anxiety got too bad was to get out of bed and write for awhile in my journal until my mind became clearer. I usually realized that I was “struggling” again. When I had that realization I would gently laugh at myself saying “There you go again.” Then I’d go back to bed and do nothing.

[whitelori]

Thank you Odinsky for the explanation. I have been trying to visualize all that you said and I think over time, this is really going to help me. I’m still wrapping my head around it, but the ocean analogy really struck me and made a lot of sense. Thanks again for taking the time and to everyone who shares here and helps others.

[Chen Liang]

Odinsky – its amazing how you manage to do that. I tried to do that for a day and i dont know how to sepparate myself from the thought and emotion. My thought was filled with sleeplessness and fear of how bad my being will be without sleep and i become so anxious . my emotion become so anxious and afraid i shake so bad at night. At that point should i just keep watching the thought and emotion? how to sepparate from them? Also how to do meditation like you? is there any guide? or book? that teach meditation and acceptance to sepparate oneself from thoughts? I need a guide i am not a smart person about this stuff.

[Chen Liang]

Odinsky – I forgot to ask when you train yourself on this meditation at night without sleep what are you doing? SRT SC? or just accepting thought and let thought happen passing throught minute to minute? What you do when sleep dont happen and wired in the middle of the night?

[whitelori]

I have the same struggle Chen Liang especially since I get racing thoughts. I’m trying that ocean analogy and thinking all those thoughts are just waves and then I picture that image of me being the calm under that blanket of waves/storm. I thank my brain first for the thoughts/worries, accept them, and then move to how do I feel right now? I admit if I am anxious or scared and accept that. I also admit when I’m happy or elated even if say thoughts of doubt creep up. I might rationalize the negative feelings with sensible thoughts which maybe defeats the purpose of separation. I’m not sure. I always have found it very difficult to separate myself from my own thoughts! I find this the most abstract concept! But I’m trying to visualize it with the ocean analogy and I hope it clicks like it has for others. Also, I do try to be “present” but I often forget especially when I’m at work and going nuts!

[Deb]

Lori and Chen – I think you need to do some kind of consistent meditation or mindfulness practice in order to begin to grasp what it means to separate YOU from your thoughts and emotions. You can’t just intellectually understand this. You have to EXPERIENCE it. I’m sure if you google meditation and mindfulness you’ll find tons of resources out there. In the beginning, it’s much easier to follow a guided meditation rather than just trying it by yourself. Once you start focusing completely on one thing and noticing how your mind drifts away, you will have the EXPERIENCE of how your thoughts have a life of their own which are separate from you and that you have some control over.

To do this takes DISCIPLINE. Odinsky worked very hard at this and it was not easy for him. At times his thoughts tormented him, telling him to even commit suicide. But through perseverance, he finally broke through. You can do this too. But you’ve got to make up your mind to do it first. Chen, you in particular, really need this. Your thoughts and emotions are completely taking over you and torturing you. You need to begin to separate from them or they will continue to torment you and could possibly lead you in a very destructive direction. Meditation or mindfulness will liberate you from them.

One of my favorite mediation teachers is Tara Brach. She has guided meditations on her website.

[MM]

Thanks, Deb! I had a lot of “there you go again” moments last night 🙂 Struggling seems to be my default and I can see this is very much learned behavior. At least I am catching it more and can practicing doing nothing. It’s funny how we are re-learning something we once did naturally when we were good sleepers.

[gsdmom]

Mike – I think you are doing great, at least you are aware you are struggling! For me sometimes I can’t do anything about it (struggling). I don’t feel I have anxiety or depression, I just know I am struggling, but putting a name on it helps me so much, then I can deal with it better.

I was reading a medical article today about neck pain, and there were a couple of paragraphs on how it can interfere with sleep, mentioning a sleep assessment for sleep impairment. I found the terminology in the article interesting. Insomnia was not used. As I’ve written before, I don’t feel the medical profession or even family members take the condition of chronic insomnia as seriously as they should.

So if any of you out there are thinking about seeing a doctor, maybe using these terms will make you more credible. “Sleep Deprivation” ( getting less than 6 hours of sleep per night) or “Serious Sleep Impairment” (getting less than 4 hours of sleep per night).

[Chen Liang]

odinsky and deb- i wonder about all of this acceptance and meditation. if we do it for the purpose of sleep isnt it becoming sleep effort and making sleep harder? Or odinsky you did it to sepparate yourself from your mind and emotion? Its hard ….

[Author]

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