[RonA]

Hi Steve.  Glad you have had no problem riding.  For me it is the best therapy.  Takes my mind off of everything but the road.  My Harley is 1,750 cc.  Big bike but all you do is cruise.  Not as nimble as your bikes.

I am not really doing ACT.  I do mindfulness mediation when I wake up in the middle of the night which seems to help get me back to sleep quicker when I have difficulty.  My main problem with insomnia is sleep anxiety and I starting taking a SSRI 2 months ago which has helped me to be more relaxed about sleep.  I am now getting 5 hours every night which I am very happy with.   For me light sleep is when I do not even know I have slept.  Last night I woke up and 3am and struggled to get back to sleep.   I started tossing and turning thinking I needed to get up for SC and then I looked at the clock and it was 4:30am.  I clearly slept almost an hour.   That made me feel good and I rolled over and went back to sleep.

I am a firm believer that sleep is all about anxiety and first and foremost you need to get that under control, even with medications if necessary.  SC is a great tool if you are getting frustrated lying in bed.  If you are calm and relaxed (using ACT tools) then there is no reason to get out of bed.  Sleep restriction is all about sleep drive and if you are consistent, it will help you sleep and most importantly it will consolidate your sleep.   Of all the tools we have for overcoming insomnia, Sleep restriction is the most valuable, at least for me.

I think you can cure insomnia using only sleep restriction, but it would require using a sleep window that is much shorter than 5.5 hours when the person is getting 2-3 hours of sleep.  It is really really hard to do, and I think that is part of the reason many of us have struggled.

[gsdmom]

Steve – Almost finished the book and wrote down some notes, mostly on Mindfulness ane Welcoming. I realize I will need some days to practice both and include them into my daily routine. I live in a beautiful area and everyday take my German Shepherd out for a good walk in nature and often have practiced mindfulness while out in the woods or on the beach with her. Now I need to work on the Welcoming. The book is good as it recommneds practicing this in the daytime, and for me I don’t feel the practicing is a strict routine, its easy to incorporate into your daily activities. Doing  strict routines start to give me anxiety, that is why I wanted to change from doing SC to ACT.

I’ve only tried ACT for  3 nights, with one night a failure, an Ambien night. The the next few days will be practicing new things while still incorporating some pre-bedtime routines from SC to ease into it. I will just not get out of bed once I settle in for the night or only sit on the side of the bed if I need to get up. At the end of the book it also talks about a sleep window – so that you don’t spend too much time laying around in bed and you can build up sleep drive, but not a strict sleep window. So I will make sure my time in bed is between 7-8 hours and will probably avoid reading in bed until I see some success.

Glad you enjoyed your motorcycle ride! I had a small bike in my late teens my husband was an excellent rider and we enjoyed many road trips when younger.

[Deb]

Ron & Steve – My husband has a Honda 750, and I’ve enjoyed riding on the back of it with him. One day he tried to teach me to ride it by myself but that was a disaster. Within a minute it had toppled over on top of me! I gave up that venture.

Ron – I have had different types of light sleep. I’ve been in and out of sleep all night, I’ve had lots of dreaming, I’ve woken up too early in the morning, and I’ve laid in bed thinking I’ve been awake all night but it’s probably a combination of wakefulness and light sleep. The next day my husband will tell me he heard me snoring!

Steve – I didn’t ask Dr. Kat about combining ACT with SR. I was doing fine with my 8-9 hours of sleep. Actually, because I was having light sleep all night, that extra sleep in the morning helped me from being a zombie the next day. After several days my light sleep deepened and went back to normal. So it’s just a matter of time before the brain finally realizes that the bed is safe and it doesn’t have to be on constant alert all night.

Gdsmom – like you, my default when I was having a bad night was to take an Ambien.  I stopped and started  ACT many times starting in June, going one or two nights without the pill and then giving up and taking it. I knew I was sabotaging my progress. Dr. Kat said that taking a sleeping pill needs to be a “decision” not something we do out of frustration. Martin also talks about how taking sleeping pills when frustrated sabotages our progress. A few weeks ago I finally made the commitment to stop taking them when having a bad night. I went 5 days without taking them. But then we went on vacation for 8 days so I “decided” to take them during that time so I wouldn’t be tired my whole vacation. After the vacation I made the commitment again. That was 2 weeks ago. Now I don’t need them because I’m sleeping well. Anyway, I’m just saying this to let you know that I understand what you’re going through. This process is like a yo-yo. But once we stick to it consistently, we start getting better.

[Deb]

Steve – That was you who asked the question about light sleep, not Ron.

Just some thoughts regarding ACT vs SC. They take different approaches to addressing the same issue of the bed being associated with anxiety and wakefulness. With SC you get out of bed to break that association. With ACT you break the association by learning to relax in bed. Sometimes I did both. If I could relax, then I stayed in bed. But occasionally my mind was just too anxious and I wasn’t getting anywhere trying to use the techniques. So there was no point in just laying there in bed all night like that. So then I would get up and calm myself down by writing in my journal or reading. Usually I would realize that I was “struggling” and then I could calm myself down. Dr. Guy talks about how we need to “catch ourselves in the act” of struggling. It takes awhile to acquire this awareness of ourselves and our thoughts but this is what mindfulness is all about.

[burn]

Deb,

Would you say that what Guy Meadows suggests regarding being relaxed in bed is a softer version of paradoxical attitude? On few nights, when I was able to release mental pressure to sleep, I felt I kind of took paradoxial attitude approach. I was lying in bed, with eyes closed (thus not exactly strict paradoxical intention), but eager to “watch” what is going to happen next. Did it feel similar to you? Would you say daytime awareness or nighttime awareness were more important to you?

Nik.

[Deb]

Hi Nik – I’m not exactly sure what paradoxical intention is but all I know is that in the book Dr. Guy talks a lot about how we have to do the opposite of what comes naturally to us. Our natural tendency is to try to “fix” our sleep problem, but the more we try to fix it – using sleeping pills, listening to soft music, darkening the room, etc., the further we get away from our goal. Instead, we need to do what is counterintuitive by leaning into it and accepting it.

I don’t do anything in bed but lie there and relax. Then my mind starts wandering, thinking random thoughts just like it did before the insomnia. And then I fall asleep.

[burn]

Deb,

 

Thank you for the response. Paradoxical intention is when you are calmly trying not to sleep, by lying in bed and keeping eyes open. I felt I experienced softer version of it few times recently, when I was lying in bed but with eyes closed and calmly watching myself being awake, taking it easy. Can’t yet achieve this state every night.

[RonA]

Deb, were you taking an SSRI too?  I know you had mentioned you were taking an anti-depressant.  I have been on Zoloft for 2 months and it fully stopped my sleep anxiety.  I am not yet sleeping consistently well but am improving slowly every week.  I plan to get off Zoloft as soon as my sleep stabilizes.  If you are no longer taking meds, did you have any issue getting off?

[gsdmom]

Deb, so glad you recommended the Sleep book. I believe practicing Weeks 2&3 about mindfulness and  welcoming can be beneficial to life in general. Here’s what I tried this morning: I took a short drive to the beach with my dog as there was a negative low tide so there’s more beach to explore. Along our walk I welcomed and greeted Regret, Miss-Stake, and sometimes I ran into Loneliness and Anxiety. They didn’t stay long, but returned every now and then. There was so much light green seaweed covering the sand that from a distance it looked like a lawn instead of a beach. I took my phone out to take some pictures of that, my dog and some selfies to check the dark circles and undereye bags. I felt really mindful and in the moment then. On the way home I invited Regret and Anxiety to come along for the ride, but they vanished and for about 10 seconds I was sitting with and welcoming Joy and Peace. I don’t know if welcoming includes positive thoughts, but I acknowledged them anyway. I really hope this will be incorporated into bedtime.

[burn]

Deb,

 

One more question if I may. Your said that hardest thing for people is to accept. Maybe I don’t understand that right in the book. I don’t use sleeping pills, props etc. But sleep it’s still bad, and sleep thoughts are around all the time. Is there something more in acceptance that I might miss?

[Deb]

Ron – I started taking Effexor back in April when I was having a really hard time. I plan on weaning myself from it soon. I’ve done this before and had no problems. I just did it gradually. Glad your sleep is improving every week.

Gdsmom – sounds like you live in a nice place! I see that you’re coming up with some clever names for your “friends.” I remember when my stomach would start to tense up from fear in bed, I would welcome Mr. Worry, a round, red-faced, furry little creature who was all tensed up with worry. I felt sorry for him and then he dissolved.

Nik – the thing is to accept your sleeplessness, that you might not sleep that night. The opposite is to “try to fall asleep.” You’re trying to do something about it instead of just accepting it. There are many things in life that we struggle with and try hard to change. But sometimes there are things that are beyond our control and so if we’re wise, we finally give up trying to change them and instead accept them as they are. Then we can have more peace in our life. Same thing with insomnia. Dr. Guy says acceptance is not resignation, as in resigning ourselves to a lifetime of insomnia. Acceptance means accepting this temporary condition of insomnia for the night and not struggling with it by trying to find a way to fall asleep that night. Does this make sense? Happy to answer any questions.

[Steve]

I have been doing mindfulness now for a couple days and it is harder during the day to do it. The bad thoughts, demons and urges keep coming back even after I invite them to stay. I just have to keep practicing it. I know I am getting calmer and accepting things more. I just have to get my subconscious to believe it. Maybe that light sleep I got last night before the deeper sleep means I am on the right path. I think I am right at 85% SE of my 6.5 hour sleep window. It may be a poor light sleep, but it is sleep. The main demons I am fighting are Mr.s Science Guy who tells me why my insomnia was caused by something going wrong during the surgery, and Exy and Tess (Anxiety & Stress) over the insomnia. But I am getting better acquainted with them. Lol.

[Deb]

I’ve studied Internal Family Systems (IFS) and can see how this can be applied here. In IFS, we identify the different parts of ourselves and get to know them all – the bad thoughts, the demons and the urges. We come to understand that they are all here for a reason, and that reason is that they are trying to help us! So for instance, my Mr. Worry. He has good reason to worry. I had had so many miserable nights, so he worries that this night is going to be miserable again and so he’s warning me about it (loudly!) by tensing up my stomach. His intentions are good, but unfortunately, not helpful. So that’s why we “thank them.” They’re trying to help us. So Steve if you can, try to begin to develop some compassion for those parts of yourself – the bad thoughts, the demons and urges. They’re only trying to help you.

[Steve]

I understand that Deb and I do have compassion for them. But I also give them funny names and make them do funny things like Dr. Meadows said in his book to make them less serious.

[burn]

It makes sense to calm down amygdala eventually, but so hard to implement. So did you commit that for a while you won’t be worrying about bad nights to eventually pacify your nerves?

[Author]

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