[Steve]

Mac – I suggest you re-read Dan Meadows book again. Maybe not Chapter 1 but from Chapter 2 onward. Most of us who practice ACT re-read sections of it on an ongoing basis as there is a lot to digest. Good luck in the next week.

[JTthemillenial]

Deb – I have had insomnia for about two months now (not as long as most people on here but still feels like a long time to me). It started as 2am awakenings, which makes sense in retrospect because I was living in a hotel and my sleep hygiene wasn’t the best, but once I started spiraling it turned into onset. Now, I have a hard time getting to sleep but I wake up I get back to sleep fairly easily.

8 hours of sleep last night! Definitely nice in contrast to two night ago when I was struggling. The past two nights have been a reminder that the tools are certainly NOT designed to make the bad feelings disappear. I think I still think of them that way when I’m having a hard time, but when I am disciplined and climb into bed with no expectations, sleep does find its way more easily. It’s hard to walk the line between “fix it” and “let it fix itself”

[Deb]

Mac – Here’s an advantage of going to bed earlier instead of being so strict about only going to bed late when you’re super sleepy. If you wake up earlier, then when you start learning to relax and fall back asleep, you’ll get more total sleep. Don’t think you “paid for it.” It’s just what your mind assumes will happen, so then it did.

[Deb]

JT – that’s great that you slept 8 hours! Yes, even 2 months of insomnia seems like forever!

[JTthemillenial]

I also want to share with anyone who might be looking to cinch up their mindfulness practice that this book along with its guided meditations compliment Meadows’ book pretty well:

https://www.newharbinger.com/mindfulness-insomnia

It has four weeks’ worth of daily meditations with skill-building around mindfulness directly (and indirectly) related to insomnia. If you’re subscribed to The Sleep School app, there are a lot of mindfulness meditations on that as well.

[suren]

Hi Everyone. It’s been a while since I’ve been active on the forum. Its great to hear of everyone’s progress on here. I also really wanted to be able to share a positive update (grimace), but it hasn’t been smooth sailing on my end.

Last time I was on here, I was giving ACT a go. I tried it for a good 4 weeks, then grew frustrated as I watched my sleep quality continue to regress with time.

These days, I don’t have any particular technique that I practice. I’m less strict about my sleep window, I don’t do SR, but I do try to get out of bed at a set time each morning and implement one mindfulness technique each day.

This approach hasn’t been effective, as I’ve gone from getting about 2-3 hrs of non refreshing sleep (a couple weeks back) to virtually no sleep at all. I average about 4-5 no-sleep nights a week, and get about 2-3 hrs of sleep twice a week.

I would love to continue on without the use of sleep aids, but I’m in dire need of some sleep relief, and I’m right now thinking to give melatonin (or some other natural sleep aid) a go. Just for a little bit until I regain the strength and will to try ACT or CBT again.

The above said, for those of you that have had more success with ACT, can you advise- do you only go into bed when tired or sleepy?

I struggle with this, as I rarely feel sleepy, so this the case- I continuously jump into bed (night after night) while not sleepy knowing that there is a strong likelihood that I’ll have a bad night. But I just do not have the will and energy to remain out of bed waiting to get sleepy past midnight.

-Suren

[Steve]

Hi Suren. In answer to your question, with ACT, you don’t wait until you go to bed until you are sleepy. You go to bed pretty much at a set time each night whether you are sleepy or not. With ACT, you practice quiet acceptance of whatever happens. By staying in bed, ACT believes that you will have more energy the next day than if you practiced SC. Hope this helps and I hope you get more sleep soon.

[suren]

Thanks Steve. Super helpful! I haven’t had much luck with going to bed when not sleepy, but it’s interesting to hear this approach works well for other.

–

[Deb]

Suren – so sorry you’re having such a difficult time. We all know how it is, so have a lot of sympathy for you. About going to bed when sleepy or not, I go to bed at the time I used to go to bed before the insomnia and have the usual amount of tiredness I did before, but not the super sleepiness where I couldn’t keep my eyes open. However, if I’m not tired enough, I will wait to go to bed or get up.

You said you practiced ACT for 4 weeks and your sleep just got worse. Could you tell us more about what you were doing? Maybe those of us who’ve made progress can help you to modify what you’ve been doing so that its more effective. ACT can be tricky, so day to day support and feedback is important to make sure you’re on track.

About using aids, when I was in dire need of relief I took Ambien which usually knocked me out for 4 or 5 hours. Eventually I weaned myself from it and don’t need it anymore now thank goodness. Anyway, sometimes we just need some relief, so don’t feel bad if you have to resort to some medication if the natural remedies like melatonin don’t help. You won’t need it forever.

[suren]

Thanks Deb.

I’ve had a less than positive experience with sleeping pills, as I noticed that I stopped getting deep sleep immediately after their use. So now I have a real fear of these types of meds. This said, I also noticed that natural aids like melatonin have no effect on me. In fact, I tried CBD oil last night, and got no sleep relief from its use. Seems like I’ve run out of fall-back options.

Regarding my past ACT practice, after reading Guy Meadows book, I opted for a sleep window of 10:30-6. Before the sleep issues, I would go to bed at 8pm, watch tv until midnight, go to sleep and get up around 7:30am. I chose the 10:30 bedtime, as when I was doing CBT with Martin, I at times got sleepy around 10:30pm.

Further with ACT, I practiced noticing my senses twice daily and deep breathing once a day. If any negative sleep thoughts arose (at night or in the day), I’d greet and welcome them, and say, aaah- here goes that negative sleep thought again. Though, with the thought watching, I didn’t practice it quite as consistently.

In the 1st week of ACT, I was averaging 1-2 hours of non-refreshing sleep on most nights with 2 no-sleep nights. The 2nd week, I was averaging 2-3 hours of light sleep on most nights. The 3rd week, I experienced more no-sleep nights (likely 4-5), and by the 4th week it felt like the insomnia was back with a vengeance.

-Suren

[Deb]

Suren – at night after letting go of any negative thoughts, were you able to get to the place of total acceptance of the possibility of a sleepless night, and just rest and relax with no expectations?

[suren]

Hi Deb, I responded but for some strange reason it says that my response is pending moderation.

So- the answer to your question is yes, particularly in the 1st week. But then as things improved in week 2 I developed an expectation of seeing improved results. Then by week 4 as I grew increasingly fatigued, I may have grown desperate for a bit of sleep relief.

I would like to try ACT again, but a bit concerned about getting into bed when neither tired nor sleepy. But if I don’t go to bed at a consistent time would I be doing the ACT correctly? And what if I stayed up past 1am waiting to get sleepy and didn’t, then do continue to sit on my couch waiting?

-Suren

[suren]

Hi Deb. Yes, particularly in the 1st week of the ACT practice. As things improved a bit in the 2nd week, I started to have positive expectations of improving. Then as things regressed in the 3rd week, a sleepless night became less acceptable as my body grew more fatigued.

I would very much like to give ACT a go again, and maybe stick to it for longer this time, but don’t really like the idea of hopping into bed when neither tired or sleepy. And would I be doing true ACT if I do not go to bed around a set time? And if I wait to get tired or sleepy prior to going to bed, what if I don’t feel sleep past 1am…do I keep sitting on my couch watching TV and waiting for that sleepy feeling?

[Deb]

It sounds like your expectations got in the way of your sleep, Surin. Recovery is not linear. There will be ups and downs along the way. About tiredness, go to sleep when you’re tired. You don’t have to be excessively sleepy. But if you’re up till 1:00 chances are you are overtired. Then go to bed!

[suren]

Thanks Deb. I didn’t think of things that way, but your feedback about recovery not being non-linear makes a ton of sense.

In resuming ACT, I feel the biggest challenge will be for me to fully accept the sleepiness nights- especially given how fatigued I am at the moment. It would have been nice to recharge somehow before diving back into the ACT practice.

I’ll give Meadows book another read, and will aim to resume ACT tomorrow. Thanks again for the feedback. Helped my decision.

[Author]

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