[jazzcat22]

Hi everyone,

I continue to struggle even after completing eight weeks of CBTI and then adhering to stimulus control. It’s frustrating because I am positive I am no longer hyperaroused. I admit that I didn’t perceive the state of hyperarousal when I started CBTI: I denied that I was hyperaroused because I outwardly appeared calm and do a lot of yoga and meditation, so I had bandaids to cover it up. When I started to get panic attacks upon going back to the bedroom (first panic attacks I ever had in 64 years of living!) I could no longer deny it. The hyperarousal stopped with the CBTI not so much because of the sleep restriction (the 5.5 hour sleep window wasn’t actually a restriction; it was doubling of the 0 to 2 hours I was getting) but because it removed the onus of trying to go to bed around 11 as my husband does and I have always done.

The stimulus control was very easy for me to do. I didn’t like lying in bed awake and I wanted to succeed, so I would be hyperalert waiting to get out of bed and worrying that I would go over 15 to 20 minutes. So in a way I think this backfired for me as I may not have given myself enough of a chance to fall asleep (even Sasha Stephens admits that it can take her 60 minutes to fall asleep). But I have avoided using the bed for anything but sleep completely during the CBTI and for months afterwards.

I did really well by the end of CBTI, experiencing sleepiness by 11 and falling asleep within minutes—and achieving 6 to 7 hours of sleep, which is all I need and al I’ve ever gotten. But then the problem started again. Tried to resume the sleep window starting at 12:30 am, but even then I was seldom sleepy—but definitely not hyperaroused as I no longer have panicky thoughts about not sleeping since I know I can survive even with minimal to no sleep some nights—and I’ve not had any medical issues because of the severe insomnia. Another reason I know I am no longer hyperaroused is that I have less nervous energy to burn off during the day and at night.

My biggest improvement is no longer having nights of nil sleep (another indicator that I am no longer hyperaroused), but I no longer experience much sleepiness except between 2 to 3 pm (I resist taking naps but get microsleeps) and watching TV around 8 pm—but then I can’t fall asleep until 2 a.m. No matter what time I go to sleep, I wake up without an alarm clock at 6 am, give or take an hour occasionally.

A smaller improvement is that I decided that if stimulus control wasn’t assuring me consistent sleep I would take back the bed as if I was fully recovered. I now read in bed from 10:30 to 11. When my husband goes to bed at 11 I leave to go into another room not to disturb him—but at least I have normalized my sleep routine to include a little of the bedtime activity I enjoyed—and I will lie in bed not worrying about 15-20 minutes, as long as I am enjoying being in bed. Usually I want to get up, not because of anxiety but just boredom. I experience no signs of sleepiness so I’d rather get up and play some word games or read or listen to a podcast.

I don’t know if I will ever be an adequate sleeper again, but I am handling the challenges much better than when they first started 18 months ago.

[jazzcat22]

JT, I’m enjoying your videos. Makes me feel less alone to see someone who is struggling and experiencing challenges.

Daf, your patterns are very much like mine. Even before the insomnia started I noticed that I would alternate one night of good sleep (like 7 hours) with a night of much less sleep, saying kiddingly “I’ll pay for last night’s good night tonight!” (but not really joking). I honestly don’t need 7 hours; if anything I feel a little sluggish and certainly no more energized or happier getting 5.5 to 6. But it makes me wonder. I know we all have the ability to sleep—but isn’t it possible that some of just have less of a sleep drive, just as some of us have less/more of an appetite for food? Just like a lab test will show that someone’s red blood cells don’t turn over as quickly as other people’s, can’t it be that some of us do have less melatonin and adenosine—not low enough to preclude sleeping but enough to make these challenges? And that some of us have longer circadian rhythms—that while the average may be that people sleep 16 or 17 hours after waking, some of us may take more like 20?

ACT has not really enabled me to sleep longer or fall asleep more quickly—but it, combined with the other mindfulness stuff I do (like yoga, meditation, reading Buddhist and Stoic stuff), helped the other night when I couldn’t fall asleep before 2 am. I got out of bed more or less happily since I had a book that I was enjoying and a podcast that I wanted to listen to—but the power went out due to a rainstorm for 2 hours—so I couldn’t do either without electricity—and yet I remained calm, so at least there was that.

[Steve]

Hi gsdmom. Congratulations on going back to work again. To answer your question, I don’t have much of that light sleep anymore….at least not that I know of. My problem mainly now is waking up about an hour after I first fall asleep and then early awakenings at around 3 or 4 in the morning. I actually feel pretty good energy wise though. I still suffer from dry eye syndrome and part of this is from the insomnia but also I think a big part of it is from air blowing from the CPAP machine. I still get the increased headaches the more sleep I get so I am going to the neurologist for that but as I said, as for my energy level, that is pretty good although not what it was pre-insomnia. As you said, it’s a slow process of retraining the brain. Good luck to you with your new job.

[Deb]

Hi Everyone,

I was out out of town for 4 days and after catching up on other things at home, I’m finally catching up on the posts here. Last week I had finally begun to re-implement ACT after a few weeks of resistance, confusion, traveling and sleeping pills. I had just finished my second night of ACT when I last wrote here. I slept well that night and felt I was back on track again. Then something unexpected came up and I had to go out of town that very day. At that point I didn’t feel completely confident about my sleep since it had only been two nights, so I brought along my sleeping pills just in case. Sure enough, I couldn’t fall asleep after a couple hours so I took a pill that night and the rest of the nights I was gone because I really needed to be alert during that time.

I got back home Monday and started up ACT again that night. I was awake most of the night or in light sleep, which I figured might happen, since I was giving up my prop, the pills. But I woke up the next day feeling fairly decent and was able to function fine all day. Last night I fell asleep soon, so I’m feeling again like I’m back on track.

Steve – that’s great that you are sleeping an average of 6.5 hours each night! You have made so much progress over the weeks. I agree with you that acceptance of whatever happens including a sleepless night is the key, and it’s why you’re improving so much. When I talked to Dr. Kat, she said this was the number one factor that determined how long it would take to recover. It can take some people awhile to finally really understand what acceptance is. I can see that you really “get it” so now you’re sleeping so much better. Also, I really love this method because when there’s a relapse, I don’t have to do or worry about anything. I just go to bed, relax and let my mind wander, just like I did before the insomnia.

Jamie – just want to clarify a big difference between ACT and SR and how there is some incompatibility between the two. In ACT, sleep is not “driven” by building up the sleep drive, but by relaxation and getting your mind out of the way so that the body automatically takes over and puts you to sleep. So you don’t work on building up your sleep drive. You just go to bed when you’re tired and then relax. You don’t have to get super tired and sleepy, but just get to the place of the usual amount of tiredness like before you had the insomnia.

TiredDad – when practicing ACT it’s best to stay in bed. If you’re experiencing anxiety and you feel that you can’t calm yourself down in bed, then get up for awhile, calm yourself and then go back to bed, relax and accept the possibility of a sleepless night. This attitude will eventually result in you falling asleep, maybe not the first night or second, but eventually. Listening to a podcast on the couch is not going to help you reach your goal either. On my first night of giving up any props (in my case alcohol or sleeping pills – in your case the couch and the podcast) I usually have a long night of wakefulness. But I stay in bed and eventually I do get at least a little sleep, even if light, and usually feel functional the next day. Then the next night it gets better. So it’s best to stay in bed and accept the fact that it might be a long night and you might not fall asleep. The more you do this, the more likely you are to fall asleep and the periods of wakefulness or light sleep will become shorter over time.

Dazzio – have you read Guy Meadows book? He talks about the importance of using mindfulness during the daytime to calm ourselves down, which in turn will help us feel calmer in bed at night. When we stop worrying about our insomnia and tiredness during the daytime, we’ll feel less anxious at night.

Burn – I don’t understand why you don’t just let your mind wander. What did you do before the insomnia? Both Steve and myself let our minds wander and are sleeping better. Remember, you’re trying to get the mind out of the way so that the body can take over and put you to sleep. Any kind of mental effort is going to get in the way of that.

[burn]

Deb,

It’s not that I don’t want my mind to wander, I would love it to wander. I think that maybe in the ‘inside myself’ state I described mind is monitoring self too much.

When I gently trying to watch wakefulness my mind does wander sometimes, so perhaps I should return to that practice. I took your words seriously, that maybe I am watching and welcoming wakefulness too much, doing too much work. So I tried different practice, perhaps it was wrong decision.

[burn]

And Deb,

As usual thank you for your inputs. Thinking about Martin’s recent talk with Nick Wignal, perhaps the full blown course of CBTI that you went through, did help you to not overthinking the whole thing. Perhaps, I still overthink.

[Steve]

Deb – Glad to hear you are back on track again. It doesn’t seem to take you long to get back on track for the several times you relapsed. That’s good to know. While I do average about 6.5 hours a night (last night was a relapse and only had about 5.0 but that’s life) I really do need more. I suspect I will start picking up more after my appointment with the neurologist in two weeks. Either she is going to find something or she is not and either way, that will tell me something and I won’t be sitting thinking about all of the horrible possibilities. I meditate to try to get my mind off of it but it’s really difficult. But at least I am getting what I am getting instead of what I used to get. It has been about one year now since I came down with insomnia. I will never forget that night I suddenly woke up at 2:00am and couldn’t get back to sleep. My life changed forever at that point. Even when I get “cured”, I will always remember the dark times and know that they might come back.

Anyway, Happy Halloween everyone!

[Deb]

Slept well again last night.

Steve – I only relapsed once, but it took me awhile to hunker down and start practicing ACT again. Now that I know that I can get back into the groove again fairly easily, I won’t waste weeks struggling and will get back with the program sooner.

Burn – Just let your mind wander all over the place when you go to bed just like you did before the insomnia. Then your brain will start associating going to bed with making no effort and you’ll start falling asleep more quickly.

CBT-I gave me back confidence that I could sleep. But ACT is what helped me learn how to “stop thinking.” The change in attitude from struggling with insomnia to accepting it on a nightly basis led to this nonthinking state at night. Once I knew what acceptance “felt like” then I could push that “acceptance button” as Borgesbi said awhile back. Then my mind would relax and start wandering and eventually I would fall asleep. In the beginning it was just one or two hours of sleep, or light sleep or in and out of sleep all night. But over time the sleep lengthened and deepened.

[Deb]

One other note about CBI-I. Because I was sleeping consistently 5 days out of 7, I got back my confidence that I could sleep and my anxiety was reduced. So when I went into ACT I had less anxiety to deal with.

[delv-x]

Hi Deb,

Glad you had a good night sleep. Happy Halloween everyone. Since June/Julyish I stopped logging my sleep, reduced and then stopped sleeping pills and started doing what I used to do before all this. Generally go to bed around 11-12, not really looking or caring about the time. Watching TV in bed occasionally for 20-30 minutes. Waking up at 7 and generally 7-8:30 on weekends. I’ve had a few setbacks that last a day or a few or a week+ but get on track. Once the decent sleep happens, I generally quickly go back to what I say is normal feeling.

So far I’ve had 4 nights in a row of poor sleep and this overcast dreary rainy day isn’t helping. I took 1/2 of a pill which eventually I guess worked but I didn’t stay asleep long and took another 1/2 hoping to at least help me through the night.

Over the past few months what I would describe my approach is ACT in terms of the rules. Go to bed at an appropriate time. Get up at the same time. If you need to nap, restrict it to 20 minutes. As for in bed, I would just shut the lights and lay down. For a minute or two I would get thoughts about “How will tonight be? Will I fall asleep as well as the night before?” but within a few minutes I’d be thinking and wandering about my day and sure enough I’d be fast asleep and when waking up to use the bathroom, I’d be back in bed sleeping within minutes.

How to describe how I feel the past few days is more alert, nervous and tense. The worry is feeding on it even though I’ve gone through this over and over and things improve. In bed, my mind is wandering but it feels like it’s really wandering and not wanting to slow down. I’ll recognize that my mind is wandering and then think “Oh boy, how long have I been wandering because I don’t feel sleepy”.

The thing I like about ACT is that I got to the point that I just didn’t care or think about it. It’s like a little wrench in the spoke derails it. Then I start thinking that it’s just a genetic thing I have to deal with and chemical and just have to work and live with it.

I just don’t want to go back to logging in/out and how many hours I slept in a log and going strict CBT-i because I think it made things worse because I would analyze the bedroom and my performance which feeds it more.

Sorry a bit of a rant 🙁

[Mac0908]

Can’t imagine a scenario where I don’t get enough sleep and cannot be upset about it. Jamie, truer words have never been spoken! It’s difficult. This whole thing. No doubt about it.

A week ago I began going into my bed before sleep. This was the first time I did this in YEARS. Before then, the bed was turned into this strict, only for sleep sanctuary thing and since I have improved so much over the last year I felt it was ok chill out a bit, with the remaining rules I have in place. I felt like it would actually ease my anxiety instead of constantly sitting on the couch every single night until sleepiness came. Well guess what the first few nights it worked. I went into my bed early, relaxed, realized that this used to be the norm, hanging in my bed for a while before sleep all the time. There was just the overall easing of any sleep anxiety that I had that came over me. It was great. I even ended up looking at my phone a bit (low light mode) and even crashed before my typical sleep window time. Things were fine and I slept ok!

Then like so many other times over the years, reality hit. A bad night earlier this week, followed by a few subtle “oh no here we go again” thoughts, followed by another bad night, and now here I am posting about my troubles. I felt as if this was going to be one of the last steps in returning to good sleep once and for all, I really did. but I sit here today a zombie. I won’t lie at all in that I got in bed last night and the small thoughts were back, plain and simple. Nothing extreme, but enough to know that this was likely going to lead to another bad night. I should have really just gotten out of bed and relaxed on the couch. Something like that. But I didn’t. I was lazy. So here I am yet again, stuck? Maybe not? Maybe thinking I still just need a couple more rounds of SRT? I don’t know. All I do know is that anxiety is the 100% culprit of my Insomnia. I’ve done things over the years that have brought it down and helped me sleep well.

The harsh reality is that these things have just acted as a band aid. I sometimes even feel SRT is that way. It forces your sleep drive to overpower any anxiety, but once you try and go back to a normal sleep routine the anxiety slowly eases its way back. At least that’s been the case for me.

[Steve]

Delv – Don’t worry about ranting. That’s what this place is for, among other things. I would keep on doing what you are doing. Eventually, you should get back on track. I know exactly what you mean about sleep logging. I stopped because I became fixated on the exact amounts I was sleeping and awake. It became counter-productive.

Mac – Sorry your sleep went south again. It’s always tough when you introduce something new into your routine even if you did it years ago. But I think you were right to try out going into your bedroom again. For all you know, that’s not even what triggered this latest sleep problem. Hope you get back on track soon.

JT – Have you posted any more video blogs after that initial one we saw? How are you doing? For some reason, I thought I detected an English accent on you which is why I thought you were in England. Yes, I heard about the snowstorm you got. Do consider the advice I gave you yesterday though to take a walk outside and practice the “Noticing Your Senses” tool out there. It really helped me.

I posted a little while ago that I probably got only 5 hours of sleep last night but I either overestimated or the sleep wasn’t very deep. I went over to the Children’s Hospital section of the Hospital where I work to pass out Halloween candy to the kids and I couldn’t believe how light-headed I was. That usually only happens when I get very poor sleep. I guess it’s just tough estimating what kind of sleep you get, even if you might know the approximate amount, until you actually start doing stuff throughout the day.

[Mac0908]

Thanks for the warm words Steve. Just curious where you’re exactly at these days. Sorry but I haven’t been following day to day. I know you’ve been dealing with this for many months now.

[JTthemillenial]

I slept okay last night but my depression is hitting me extra hard today. I had a session with my sleep therapist yesterday and he said he’s never had an insomnia client as determined as me, which I took as “you are trying way too hard to fix the problem and digging yourself into a bigger hole.” He literally used the hole metaphor. Today I just feel helpless.

[Steve]

Mac – I have just passed the one year mark of coming down with this. I still remember the first night waking up with it at 2:00 in the morning. I now get between 6 and maybe 7.25 hours of sleep but probably average closer to 6.5. I’m just not sure if it’s good sleep or not. I think that while I feel pretty crappy today, I still have more energy than I did back at the beginning of the year so at least I can get through the day on a really bad day.

[Author]

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