[Mac0908]

Well Pam if you’ve really seen big improvement for the first time in 20 years then that’s a story that should inspire every single person on here. Just curious how did it all begin all those years ago?

[Deb]

Hi Pam – that’s great that you’re doing so much better! Thanks for your encouragement too. I’m not really worried about not getting better. It’s just a phase. Just curious, how does your sleep compare to how it was before? What time would you go to bed and get up, how long would you sleep, how many times would you wake up and for how long, how was the quality of your sleep (deep or shallow), etc?

Mac – I’m ok with what I’m doing, but thanks anyway. I don’t consider it SC because I’m not getting up every half hour to try to break the connection between sleeplessness and the bed. I just know myself and when I can’t change my state of mind just lying there in bed. I know it’s a step back but I accept that that’s ok too. One step back, but many steps forward.

[Deb]

Pam – if you want to get the emails again, unsubscribe here at the top. Then come back in a day or two and subscribe again. It’s weird though, because sometimes I get the emails and sometimes I don’t. For instance, I got the email when Mac posted after you, but not when you posted.

[Steve]

Pam – Very happy to hear that you are doing better. It was my pleasure reaching out to you after you posted originally. Hope you continue to improve. Stop by here on this thread in the forum more often. We love hearing from you and everyone else out there who has trouble sleeping and is trying, or wants to try ACT.

Pam – Maybe it’s just the stress of the Holidays that is interfering with your sleep this time. Hope you get back on track soon. I know you will.

[Deb]

Just a some other thoughts, Mac, about a couple of your comments. About “Can’t worry or be frustrated when laying in bed at night no matter what.” Like I said before, I accept that it’s ok sometimes if I can’t get to that place of total acceptance. I prefer to have this more relaxed attitude towards myself. Of course if it became a habit, that would not be good and it would only feed the insomnia.

Also, about “you should be able to do this at this stage.” When I recovered, it was very quick. I started practicing ACT diligently in July, and was cured in less than two weeks. Then when I relapsed, when I got back with the program it only took 3 days. So in some ways I haven’t had to experience the struggles that many of you have had where it has taken much longer to heal. So maybe I need to experience some of this and it will help me in the long run. Of course, I’m not going to ask for it!

[Steve]

Deb – Sorry, I meant that second comment about the stress of the holidays for you, not Pam.

[Deb]

No problem. That was clear to me.

[Pam1129]

Well Mac I just wrote this long answer to your question and it ‘went away’ haha
I’ll answer again later, but try and keep it brief
And Deb , thanks , started getting them again after logging in????

[Mac0908]

Deb, how’s your relapse recovery going? Really a bit of an upsetting morning for me here. We had a big holiday breakfast thing in the office today with EVERYONE in my department and I really wanted to look and feel my best and not have the bags and “sick” look that comes from a bad night. Well, last night was a pretty bad night. I crashed around a normal time of 11 or so but struggled with an early awakening. I didn’t panic. I kept calm. Did good ACT. But it still doesn’t change the fact that it happened. Just another part of going through the motions of this long term recovery.

I was doing ok otherwise this week. Not great, but ok. Just really wanted to be alright today of all days. One of the big differences today compared to a bad night a year ago though is back then I’d sit at my desk devastated over seeing everyone else upbeat and refreshed while I secretly sat in exhaustion, hiding almost. Today, well, i’m still kind of upset over the situation, i’m not on here freaking out trying to figure out what to do and “Why me”, and all that stuff. My mentality has changed drastically compared to a year ago, if nothing else.

Curious question to Deb, Steve and others.. When it comes to ACT, do you guys follow the whole ‘put all electronics/screens away’ an hour or so before bedtime? I’ve taken my “letting go” mentality far enough to where for a few minutes before sleep while in my bed I’ll play around on my phone. Screen is on warm mode and lowest brightness, but still. Wonder if it’s a bad move.

• This reply was modified 5 years ago by Mac0908.

[Deb]

Hi Mac, sorry you couldn’t be well rested for your work party. That’s a bummer. But glad your mentality about it is better than in the past. About your phone, I wouldn’t worry about it. I sometimes look at mine a few minutes, but mostly I read before bed.

I’m not doing great. I’ve had a lot of long nights laying in bed unable to fall asleep. Getting frustrated and discouraged. It’s been over a week now since my relapse started. Last night again I couldn’t sleep and finally at 2:00 got up, had a drink and wrote in my journal a bit. Went back to bed in about a half hour. Laid there and still couldn’t sleep. Got up and could hear the morning traffic outside starting up. It was 4:30. I broke down and took an Ambien. Still couldn’t sleep for half an hour even though I was extremely tired and dizzy. Thought about taking another Ambien, but I know that’s dangerous. I’m already taking the highest dosage of 10 mg. I slowly walked into the living room and decided to try sleeping on the couch. I slept for about 5 hours there. Didn’t hear my husband get up and go to work or anything. Luckily I’ve got no obligations today. Only need to do some shopping.

I don’t know why it’s so much harder this time. I think I know what I need to do, but it’s been hard to completely commit myself to do it. Back in July when I finally started ACT again I committed myself to two weeks of doing it right, using no props like alcohol or pills and enduring the long nights and tired days. I told myself if I didn’t see any improvement during that time I would quit. But within two weeks I was cured. It started out with one or two long nights but then it quickly shifted to my falling asleep soon but having shallow sleep. Then soon the sleep deepened and I was sleeping normally – falling asleep easily and sleeping through the night.

Now I’m having a string of long nights where I’ll just lay in bed for hours. Sometimes I look at the clock and sometimes I don’t, but I figure on average I’ve been up until 3:00 almost every night. Sometimes I’ll stay in bed and not take anything and I’ll eventually fall asleep and get a few hours in the early morning. Other times I’ve gotten up around 2:00 or 3:00 and then had a drink or a pill to help me fall asleep. I know this is not helping me in the long run, but it’s just so hard of face another long night!

I know that I need to do what I did before which is to recommit myself to at least two weeks of no pills or alcohol and staying in bed and enduring the long, sleepless nights (and accepting them.) Then maybe things will begin to shift. But it’s so hard. On page 77 under the section, I’M TOO TIRED, Guy says that tiredness can lower your motivation and unwillingness to experience discomfort. “The extra tiredness experienced in the first few sleepless days after coming off pills can be enough to drive people to give up and revert back to tolerating a few hours of drug-induced sleep and next day grogginess instead.” That’s me alright.

Sorry for the depressing report. Thinking of starting a sleep diary again and seeing if I can gradually increase the number of nights of not relying on props or pills, since I just don’t seem to have the will power right now to commit to two full weeks of abstinence. I may check in with Dr. Kat too for any tips. I still have 45 unused minutes available to use with her.

[Mac0908]

Wow Deb, it’s both devastating and fascinating reading about your struggles here. I say fascinating because you were doing so well for so long and now are in this rather difficult funk. One thing I can tell from reading your post is that this is not going to be an overnight fix and you are going to have to probably work at this for a little bit to get out of it. Just hard to believe how you could go to bed around 10-11 and not be able to crash for 3, 4 5 hours. I guess coming from someone who hasn’t ever really struggled with sleep onset it’s hard to understand. What is it you think about when you go to bed? What exact thoughts come into your mind that keep you awake for so long?

[Deb]

Yes sleep onset insomnia is a real bummer. You can go for HOURS without sleeping. I’m glad it’s fascinating for you! Maybe others are meant to learn from me as I figure this out for myself.

It’s interesting because right now I’m reading this book about a woman whose boyfriend breaks off their relationship with no warming. She is devastated because they seemed to have been doing so well and were talking about getting married. She said that this was a lot harder than if they had been having a difficult time for a long time, like a couple getting divorced after a painful marriage. So it’s sort of like this for me. I’ve been doing so well for a long time and then this happens. Whereas if I had been struggling and then gradually got better, maybe it wouldn’t feel so frustrated.

In bed I don’t think about anything in particular. It’s only when I realize I’ve been laying there for hours that I start getting frustrated. Sometimes I’ve been able to let it go of the frustration and then finally fall asleep in the wee hours of the morning. Other times I’m not so successful.

[jazzcat22]

HI everyone, I’ve been reading your posts and admiring the remarkable progress so many of you have made, but don’t post much for three reasons. The first is that I feel like a failure since I haven’t fully or nearly recovered to my original sleep patterns like so many of you do, even if it’s just for some weeks until you get a hiccup but then you get back on track. The second is that I feel my situation is so different from the majority here, although it’s pretty close to Daf’s experience. The third is that I do so poorly with ACT and actually prefer CBTI!

But your honesty, especially Mac’s, Deb’s, and Pam’s, have inspired me to tell my truth, even though it’s a little pathetic in some ways. I’m always an outlier—can’t even fit in with fellow insomniacs…but I’d appreciate your input.

I did well with Martin’s 8 week course and was falling asleep quickly between 10:30 and 11, getting up at 6 (with several awakenings, which don’t bother me, especially since it’s associated with bathroom trips. But within a week or two, the difficulties started again—sleep onset to the point where I couldn’t fall asleep until 2 am and some sleepless nights. I had not stopped the SC so continued with that and readjusted my window, but my sleep was very erratic. So I tried ACT which goes along nicely with the mindfulness, meditation, and Buddhist teachings I love—-but lying in bed does not necessarily lead to sleep for me. I find it boring. I am comfortable there, psychologically and physically, just bored. I’d rather get up and read or do yoga. Of course I think acceptance is a wonderful thing for every area of life, especially that which we have no control over/can’t change, but I work on acceptance out of bed and not just at night. To me it’s the ultimate in acceptance to admit that I’m not sleepy/can’t sleep and be okay with it. Lying in bed is almost a sleep effort for me.

I have made substantial progress in one area: no more totally sleepless nights for several months. So I always have confidence that I will sleep. But although there is the occasional night that I go to bed when my husband does at 11 and fall asleep within half an hour, in general I can’t fall asleep until 1 a.m. And I always wake up naturally at 6. Being retired I could sleep in but that wouldn’t do anything to build up my sleep drive for the next night and I know I couldn’t fall asleep because I am not sleepy.

And therein lies the problem. I know Martin and other sleep experts would say that I must still have some hyperarousal, but I’m positive I don’t. I just don’t get sleepy until 1, even though my entire life (65 years) I’ve never gone to bed later than 11. I fall asleep watching TV around 8:30 or 9, but only for 10 minutes. Obviously I am really relaxed watching TV so that enables me to fall asleep—but it’s not like I conk out for hours. So I honestly feel like I don’t have a strong sleep drive and/or need for more than 5 hours sleep.

At the beginning of all this I freaked out with five hours sleep. Now it’s just normal for me. I wake up eager to get my day started. Feel rested and clear-headed. Good mood—just some slight frustration that I am on the 5 hour plan, probably for the rest of my life. Is this a problem when I can function so well the next day, doing all the physical activity I do and chores? Of course I wince when yet another article says how people who sleep less than 7 hours will get dementia, but so far I am doing well physically and mentally. I just can’t sleep until 1 or past 6! I’m still working on making the two hours between my husband going to sleep at 11 ( I now read in bed from 10:30 to 11—I reclaimed the bed to that extent) until I try to sleep at 1 (without any actual signs of sleepiness—I’m not wired, but definitely not eyes closing, etc.—a few yawns) as fulfilling as possible.

I no longer believe my ability to sleep is completely broken, but I do think it’s possible that I have low amounts of melatonin and adenosine. Maybe not so low that I can’t sleep at all, but lower than most people’s. We get blood and other lab tests to see our chemical makeup, so why would it be impossible that some of us have low levels of neurochemicals? I think I just have to accept this and be grateful that I function as well as I do on four to five hours sleep.
Some of Martin’s recent interviews including Daf note that their sleep isn’t perfect and can be on the short side still–it’s more about your attitude with this and ensuring health in other ways than conquering sleep and demanding your fair share—I guess!

Sorry about writing so much. I’ve been wanting to post but almost felt ashamed that I didn’t love ACT and wasn’t as successful as many of you. This was cathartic for me. Any input would be appreciated.

[Deb]

Hi Jazzcat – great to hear from you! I was just wondering, how long have you had insomnia, which kind do you have (sleep onset or maintenance) and how long did you sleep before the insomnia?

I ask about the sleep length because if you were sleeping 5 hours before the insomnia then that sounds fine to sleep 5 hours now. But if you were sleeping more, like maybe 7 hours (from 11:00 to 6:00 like your husband) then you should be sleeping more in my opinion. I say this because when I’m sleeping normally, I’m back to the sleep pattern that I had before the insomnia which is around 8 hours. Also, I don’t depend on a strong sleep drive to fall asleep.

Again (in my opinion) I don’t think you really understand how ACT works. Have you read the book? ACT is about learning to completely relax in bed so that you fall asleep and stay asleep. The fact that you fall asleep watching TV, shows me that you can completely relax and fall asleep. Also, the fact that you say that lying in bed is an “effort” shows me that you’re not learning to completely relax in bed. It’s an effort, you’re bored and you’re thinking about how you’d rather being doing something else like getting up and doing yoga. You’re not relaxing and setting the condition whereby sleep will naturally come.

About myself, last night I realized that I’ve probably been doing compensating behaviors and having unhelpful thoughts that have been contributing to my insomnia the last several days. I just go to that place so automatically and without any awareness when I start struggling with my sleep. So last night was better. I fell asleep within a more reasonable period of time and then had light sleep. I got up to go to the bathroom and then could not fall asleep. I’m tired today, but hopeful.

[Mac0908]

Jazzcat – Bravo to you for sharing your entire story. Me and plenty others on here can relate in many ways. Unless I missed it you didn’t go into what caused your insomnia. Just curious how/when is started. But in any event, getting to that special point of realizing you CAN sleep normally again and that your ability isn’t “broken” is a huge point in the process and I’m glad you got there. That being said, then say you think your melatonin levels are off. I highly doubt this is the case. Oh, and as far as the fear of dementia, I’ll one up you – Alzheimer’s runs in my family. How’s that for more anxiety in a world of already maxed out anxious feelings. On top of all that, not that this matters too much bc I know a person struggling is a person struggling, but I’m 30 YEARS younger than you. Just trying to make you feel better in a bizarre way!

Now onto your post. You say you don’t feel any hyperarousal in you and guess what, you may be absolutely right in that you don’t feel anything or believe you have any issues. I don’t either most of the time. I go sleep at night myself feeling just fine. Hardly a worry in the world compared to where I was even a year ago. But like clockwork, I still have my early awakenings most nights. So here’s the thing… In my opinion, when we were REALLY struggling for so long(though I’m not sure how long you’ve been struggling) we became so conditioned to sleeping poorly that it’s not so much about us “feeling” anxiety or anything in our arousal systems, but instead it’s just more of the fact that we’ve formed a bad mental habit, so to speak, if that makes sense. We’ve developed a pattern that is now the “new normal” of sleeping and only with proper ACT and other tools (for some, SRT) can we begin to relearn how to get to sleep and stay asleep, most of the time. That’s my two cents on what you’re feeling.

I think you’re on the right track, but as Deb said you need to really start to understand what ACT is all about. You also need to know, at least based on what I can gather from your post, is that it’s going to be anything but an overnight fix before you can get back to sleeping a lot more than 5 hours most nights. I highly suggest checking out some of Guy Meadows’ YouTube videos or picking up his book.

Deb – Hope you’re doing alright this weekend. Keep us posted on your relapse recovery. Curious how it’s going to go this week.

Last night I had what I’d call a very rare special night of near perfect sleep. Crashed around midnight after a LONG day and subsequent night out with friends, and woke at 8am. I felt as good as I think I could feel, all day today. One of those beautiful refreshing mornings that made me get that typical feeling as if everything is going to be ok, eventually. I slept so well I even had no bags under my eyes which helps the bad feelings, though the dark circles are still very much there and will continue to be. Ugh. 3+ years of bad sleep will do such a thing I suppose. They are hereditary from my Mother and now it’s just not pretty at all. I recently finally picked up some sort of Aveeno eye cream which I hope might help just a bit because boy are they bad in some lights.

• This reply was modified 5 years ago by Mac0908.
• This reply was modified 5 years ago by Mac0908.
• This reply was modified 5 years ago by Mac0908.

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