[Deb]

Hi Mac – so glad you had a great sleep last night! Are you on vacation now so you could sleep in? If so, hopefully you’ll get more nights like this.

My recovery is “on hold” for right now, but I’m doing ok. Friday night I didn’t take anything and was in and out of sleep and overall got a few hours of sleep. Was tired Saturday but took a nap and then felt fine the rest of the day which was good because I had to prepare for a party I was having at my home on Sunday. Saturday night I didn’t take anything initially, hoping to fall asleep naturally. By about 2 or 3 I still wasn’t sleeping completely but maybe having light sleep. But because of the party that day I knew I needed to be rested, so I took an Ambien again. Woke up around 8:30 and was good for the day.

The party was a huge success! I invited the jazz trio to play at my house and we had about 25 people here, listening, with some singing or playing other instruments. It was so much fun and I serenaded my husband again with the song I wrote for him. The only problem was that I got completely hyper! Didn’t go to bed until 12 and then could not shut down my overactive mind, so again I took a pill at 1:30.

I don’t like being in the on-hold mode but because of circumstances I felt it was the best I could do. Then this Wednesday morning we’re catching an early flight to visit family so I’ll take a pill again. I’ll get back with the program the following day.

[jazzcat22]

Hi Mac, thanks for your reply. Wonderful that you got such a good night’s sleep. And it’s so good that you just enjoyed it for what it was without worrying that it could impact the subsequent night of sleep, as I would. Let’s hope that such nights become less rare for you.

As for what caused my insomnia, my whole life I’ve never slept long or what I considered deep (like a college roommate who could sleep through fire alarms!). But it was adequate for me. Then a couple of years ago I noticed that I could no longer take my treasured afternoon nap of 30 to 60 minutes (sometimes wasn’t tired, usually not sleepy, and couldn’t fall asleep lying down) and that I had to turn out the lights the second I experienced sleepiness or that feeling would go away and I couldn’t fall asleep for another hour. But what set it off 18 months ago was being up for two nights with my husband in the ER and then worrying about his health and impending surgery (he’s fine now).

Yup, in some ways I was happy that I functioned as well as I did with nights of 0 to 2 hours sleep, but I did wonder whether I was trying my body to just accept the new normal.

I do agree that my 30 years on you makes it a little more palatable in dealing with this, as does retirement. I really feel for people who have to get up and function at work for eight hours every day! And hopefully as young as you are, the bout of insomnia will be long behind you and won’t cause any cognitive difficulties even if it’s run in your family…and that their will be treatments and preventive vaccines by the time you are my age!

The thing with ACT is that it’s actually not enjoyable for me to just lie around in bed. I understand that it is for most people. I have nothing against relaxing. I enjoy meditating—but at my level of skill, can only do it/enjoy it for 20 minutes or less. Lying around for two hours just isn’t fun for me. I’d rather get my relaxation away from bed, reading, listening to music or a podcast, doing yoga, etc. It’s like with vacations. I’ve always preferred a mountain vacation with hiking than a beach vacation where you mostly just lie around on the beach. I’ve read the book by Meadows and I can listen to some of his videos. I do incorporate acceptance/mindfulness into my days and nights. It’s very much related to secular Buddhism, which I’ve found helpful in so many ways. Dr. Hayes, who founded ACT, has a new book out—maybe I will read that.

[jazzcat22]

Hi Deb,thanks for your reply. I had insomnia for 18 months—note how I said “had” because I do recognize it’s improved—and now I look at it as sleep challenges or just short sleep and not true insomnia. May just be semantics, but it feels more positive and empowering. For months I truly was unable to sleep at all many nights and just a couple of hours some nights, so never getting less than four hours, occasionally seven, and usually 5 to 6, doesn’t seem like an inability to sleep—just an inability to sleep eight hours (which I understand is typical and not even pathological).

I always used to be in bed for seven hours, 11 to 6. But was I actually sleeping all those hours? Probably not. Before I had what was undeniably insomnia I noticed that I was unable to fall asleep for the one hour naps I used to enjoy in the afternoon. Just either wasn’t sleepy and often not even tired. I tried to do it since it was my routine but gave up because I either didn’t need them or in any case couldn’t do it. And then I noticed that if I didn’t go to bed immediately upon experiencing the first sign of sleepiness then I couldn’t fall asleep quickly.

What I had (have) was sleep onset challenges. I do wake up several times during the night, but usually associated with my bladder calling me, and falling asleep right away after, so didn’t consider that a problem.

I did read the ACT book. But relaxing in bed isn’t going to more quickly lead to sleep if the sleep drive isn’t there. It’s like Daniel Erichsen says about pills and supplements—if you took them in the middle of the day would they cause you to fall asleep? Probably not, and that’s why he says they are not causing you to fall asleep at night. I’ve never been one to just lie around. I never understand why people enjoyed lying (and often sleeping) on a beach for hours! And I don’t think boredom automatically leads to sleep, especially in someone without strong sleep pressure. I’m not bored when watching TV but still fall asleep a little. I don’t understand that sleepiness at 9 pm because I am quite sure that I would not fall asleep for the night if I was in bed at 9 (I don’t watch in bed). I’ve never seen an explanation as to why there could be such brief sleepiness at 9 as if sleep drive is building up but then not being able to fall asleep for two to four hours later. It’s almost as if the brain reacts a bit to some adenosine starting to build up, but it’s not enough to sustain sleep for hours. Similarly, why do so many people experience sleepiness from about 2 to 3 pm and then not for hours later?

I understand what you mean by “not relaxing and setting the condition where sleep will naturally come, but I do think it’s possible to relax away from bed. It’s the buffer zone that Martin describes—where people can do anything relaxing, even knitting or watching TV—and you do it to relax, not to try to get sleepy. I think just the hours of being awake set the conditions for sleep, although admittedly in my case I seem to need more hours awake than the 16 you and many people need to get there again.

It’s interesting that you don’t depend on a strong sleep drive to fall asleep. Because my understanding is that it’s a combo of Circadian rhythms and sleep pressure that makes us fall asleep. Is is just that you don’t experience typical signs of sleepiness? Except for the couple of quick head nods while watching TV, I don’t experience much signs of sleepiness any more. I honestly don’t feel any different when I try to go to sleep at 11 but can’t and then get up for about half an hour to read and then after rinsing and repeating another time, and it’s more 12:30 or 1 at that point I go to bed, not feeling sleepy, but the sleep drive now is obviously there and the hyperarousal is minimal to nonexistent, so at that point I CAN fall asleep even though I am still reading well and my eyes aren’t closing (at most a couple of yawns).

That’s too bad that you feel tired after less than 8 hours of sleep/light sleep. I did think an advantage of ACT is that the lying still and relaxing in bed would be restorative even if the whole time wasn’t spent sleeping. I’ve seen some experts who think that just lying in bed relaxed is as good as sleeping (there’s a type of yoga meditation that purports that one hour of doing it is equivalent to four hours of sleeping, which I am cynical enough to think it can’t be true since it isn’t the deepest delta wave sleep) and others who say deep sleep is needed to feel good the next day.

I don’t ever consider my sleep light. It may be short. It may be broken up by awakenings/bathroom trips. But I guess it’s restorative enough to make me eager to get the day started at 6, whether it’s 4 hours or 7, so I think I’m getting what I need…and my ACT efforts are just accepting the new normal, which really is pretty good, and not be frustrated by having some sleep pattern changes.

[gsdmom]

Greetings everyone!

Mac – so good to read you got 8 hours of sleep! As I read your post I started feeling refreshed myself remembering how good that felt.

Deb – Sorry to hear about your delayed recovery, but given your recent circumstances and stressors (even though they were positive stressors) I believe most normal sleepers would experience temporary insomnia before a big event like a party or traveling. Your party sounded delightful and I’m sure it will be fondly remembered for many years.

My recovery has not been stable either. At the beginning of November, I had almost 3 straight weeks of good sleep. Hardly any onset issues. Then there came new job issues and schedule changes and it seems the tiniest change or stressor will upset my sleep. And so since about Nov 20th, I’ve taken 4 Ambiens. I know my brain is slowly recovering, but I need to emphasize, slowly. My previous job was in retail, seasonal help so my hours were crazy, sometimes only 12 hours a week or then up to about 35 hours, having my stop time be anywhere from 4pm till 11pm. My body didn’t like all the variations. My new job has better pay and benefits, but will eventually require shift work, but for now I have 3 weeks of training from 7am-4pm. About 4 days before starting, I set my alarm for 5:15am so my body would adjust to the new schedule. I have sleep onset issues like Deb, and so it was so frustrating not sleeping until 1:30am or so. The night before my first day I did take an Ambien, I called it at 11:30pm. I’ve been trying to use the bed for only sleep, not even reading at night. I read on the sofa, and for 3 nights in a row, I was so cuddly and felt so relaxed around my Christmas decorations in the living room that I just fell asleep on the sofa in a very short time and slept for almost 6 hours most nights. The last couple weeks have had mostly 5-6 hours of sleep per night. With last night sleeping 7 hours, probably because my training went a bit better yesterday and I decided I am not doing anything extraordinary for Christmas this year, giving a gift to myself to just de-stress and relax and my family will just have to accept it. Even on my days off I am still waking about 5:30am so not to upset my sleep schedule. I am still trying to practice ACT and mindfulness, whether it being sitting in my car for a few moments focusing on my breathing, or deciding to just accept my insomnia at night and decide to just relax in bed and throughout the day trying to remember to lean into my anxieties or uncomfortable feeling. But since having good sleep, it does take a while now to get to the point of acceptance when I’m struggling with sleep onset issues.

[Deb]

Hi Gdsmom – good to hear from you! I hope your new job works out for you and eventually you can get back to getting consistently good sleep like you did in November. That’s good that you don’t need to take Ambien often. I seem to be all or nothing when it comes to Ambien. When I’m in the recovery mode, I never take it. But when I’m struggling (like now) I take it a lot because when I can’t fall asleep I can stay awake for hours which I hate, and also sometimes I just can’t afford to do this because of something important coming up the next day. Tomorrow we’re leaving for San Francisco so I’ll definitely take a pill tonight so that I can get up early and be decent during the day. I may end up taking it the whole week because I hate the thought of having any zombie days when I’m out there. I can deal with that better here at home.

Jazz cat – thanks for sharing your story. About the 8 hours of sleep, it’s not that I need 8 hours but that just happens to be my schedule when I’m sleeping normally. I can do well on less, but with the 8 hours I am very refreshed.

Some thoughts about sleep drive. It’s not that I don’t need sleep drive, but I just don’t need to get really sleepy like I used to have to with SRT. Instead it’s just the normal amount of sleepiness like before the insomnia, with a yawn or two instead of fighting to keep my head from nodding off.

Here’s my thoughts on your question about why you fall asleep at 9 while watching TV, even though the sleep drive hasn’t built up. You get so comfortable and relaxed when watching TV that your body automatically takes over and you fall asleep. Granted, you might not sleep long, but this shows how the body automatically falls asleep if it’s relaxed enough. This is how it is for normal sleepers I believe. They get into their warm and comfy bed and it’s so cozy that they get so relaxed that after awhile they can’t help but to fall asleep. This is how ACT works.

When you say that you’re an active person and it’s hard for you to just lay around in bed (or on the beach), I totally get that. If you do ACT right, you won’t have to have long nights in bed forever. For myself it usually takes just a few long nights and then soon I start falling asleep earlier. But I know that this just isn’t your thing and you don’t want to do it and I respect that. To each its own. You seem to be happy with the sleep you’re getting so that’s great. But for myself I wanted to get back to how I slept before the insomnia, and ACT did this for me. Maybe SRT will do that for you too eventually.

Merry Christmas Everybody!

[gsdmom]

Deb – have a great time in SF! SF is so beautiful. I live about 90 miles south of SF along the coast. Hope you get to hike in the Redwoods somewhere, that is just about my favorite thing to do. If you feel like driving, then Monterey/Carmel area is wonderful too. And of course I hope you will get some good sleep and have energy for the day.

[Deb]

Thanks, Gdsmom! We’ve been here many times and have visited those places because my husband’s parents lived here for 40 years, right in the heart of the city. Now it’s just his mom who will be 97 next month and is amazingly still living independently. Of course, I never get tired of San Francisco! Sounds like you live in a very nice place!

[Daf]

Still good to hear from you all.

I’m still doing well. Average about 5.5 to 6 hours of actual sleep a night, sometimes a little more, sometimes less. It’s what I need.

As explained in the podcast it was SRT and a bit of mindfulness combined with realising I, like many insomnia sufferers, have a slightly obsessive personality, it was all this that eventually got me better.

When things were bad with frequent nil sleep nights, I cranked sleep amount to just 4 hours a night for about 3 weeks, then built up gradually from there. It’s hard getting up after a small amount of sleep, but I did it. This stopped the yoyo of nil sleep nights evert second night.

And it increased the sleep drive the following nights, thereby eliminating the nil sleep nights.
Tiny amounts of mirtazapine helped from time to time to increase drowsiness too.

So grateful to be better now.
How I did it using act, srt and mindfulness is all in the podcast.

I wish you well.

[Deb]

Glad you’re doing well Daf!

[Deb]

Mac – how’s your week been?

[Mac0908]

Hi Deb. This week has been ok. I didn’t have the greatest night on Christmas Eve but it wasn’t a bad night. I put myself together the best I could and felt pretty well for Christmas dinner at my family’s house. After that though things started to be smooth sailing. This weekend (Fri and Sat night) was amazing as I had two great nights of sleep that have left me feeling refreshed. Friday I went to sleep as late as 1:30am (rare for me) and it made me kind of nervous since I basically haven’t slept past 8am in what feels like a dogs age. Well I ended up sleeping until 9AM(!). Wow, I thought. However, come last night (Sat night) I thought my sleep drive was going to be weird since I slept so late. Wouldn’t you know it, I went in my bed at 10:30pm, was out by 11, woke today at 7am! So again, basically two great nights of long sleep, and more evidence that I can sleep just fine even given some interesting circumstances. However as good as this all sounds, it’s also more evidence that my infamous 6am alarm for work continues to be the culprit in preventing me from ever truly resetting and healing. This is my opinion at least. Give me a job that allows me to wake around 7am or so, and I can almost guarantee you I’d be fully healed within a month. It’s this extremely early 6am wake up call which as I’ve said many times before was a bit of a problem even BEFORE this all began, that continues to hold this all into place.

That all being said, I’ve had a bit of a goal in the last month to end this year on a really high note and go into my one year anniversary of beginning my recovery sleeping well. We’ll see how it goes, and i’ll report back. In the meantime though, how are YOU doing?

[Pam1129]

‘Third time’ is hopefully the charm?

I have attempted writing this two other times and they were quite lengthy.

Mac had asked a few weeks back how this all started for me ;so I had shared part of ‘my journey’ with Insomnia.

Martin ( and… I’m not even a client) was kind enough to send me a personal email, with his sincere apologies ,about the fact that both of them somehow did not post… he also assured me it would be ok and to please share again… so here goes…

I have four children 35,30 and twins 24 … married 39 years to an amazing and very supportive man! ( whom I almost left 28 years ago?, I would have missed sooo much)

I have been struggling with insomnia for about 19years… to pinpoint a time or a specific incident I really can’t … my oldest went into the military 17 years ago ,at that time I decided to homeschool the twins.. haha yes, by choice… at times that was pretty stressful, and maybe it just exacerbated my already crazy sleep schedule …. I then just attributed it to hormones and that someday it would get better?

Over the last 19 years …. I tried, I feel every over the counter sleep aids known to man… with NyQuil working the best ( I would get 3-4 hours) I was miserable!! I then went on the hunt , my poor doctor, I tried SO many prescription sleep meds only to have them work for about 7 days then taper from 7 hours back down to 3-4hrs on days 8&9 and so on

My dr. Suggested a sleep study, which I believe was a waste of time, I knew I didn’t have restless leg or sleep apnea, I just felt broken and that I had totally lost the faith in myself ‘ to even know how to fall asleep’ I’m a very positive person most the time but this was def affecting me, however ,I kept pushin on! I wasn’t going to let it ruin my attitude .

I was always looking for another avenue ; answers to the ‘why’ this was going on!
I went to a naturopath ; tried bio-identical hormones, Accupuncture ( which I had the best 30-45 min deep sleep nap EVER!) went to a wonderful sleep psychologist , I would try everything anyone or any magazine article would suggest I try! Yoga, baths at night, I tried drinking a glass of wine every night, did a very strict bland diet for 21 days, tried a fast ..

My last attempt at sleep before I found Martins free course and all of you was a Hypnotist . I really enjoyed her and the experience was more comfortable than I thought it would be , until after many sessions and I still wasn’t sleeping ! She suggested the next session be on ‘Acceptance of my insomnia’ and NOW I have to just laugh, because that is when I decided NOT to go back!! I’m trying to get rid of this not ACCEPT IT LOL!!

I thought No Way am I going to accept this dreaded pattern of no-sleep, feelings of depression, loneliness, depleted of energy , angry that this is my normal; PLUS I look SO OLD those bags and dark circles!!!!! ARGH!!!

Back online I went… and found Martin!!!

The SR was the first thing for me that actually gave me some relief and much needed hope !! It wasn’t easy at all trying to stay up till 12, but after some time and practice I was finally able to get 4 consecutive hours which I hadn’t been able to do) my sleep window was 12-5
SC was very difficult for me, although I gave it my best effort, i felt it just gave me more anxiety .
Deb… then you mentioned ACT, and like with all other ‘tools/tips’ ever mentioned I ordered it that day my ‘Sleep book!!!!’ I read and re-read …. I Literally LOL when it talked about ACCEPTANCE!!!!!! I feel I owe the sweet hypnotist an apology…. But that’s exactly ‘what’ is helping me get more sleep Now, than I’ve had in years!!!

Most of the time it was sleep maintanence , issues , lots of wakefulness , lately it’s been still more wakes than I want BUT I can handle that!

Oh it’s a constant work in progress but what I do know now, is that me trying to control my sleep , wishing it away, thinking just positive thoughts , or trying out all the breathing techniques or imagining me on a beach , was Not working at all,

Me ….. just lying there and accepting whatever comes HAS/IS really been the most helpful!!
.. typing this seems , well, just too simple, doesn’t it☺️☺️

Annnnnd, I KNOW it’s NOT that simple, at this time, ACT is what’s helping me

[Deb]

Mac – I’m so happy you had two great nights in a row! So you’re seeing that you don’t have to have a high sleep drive to sleep – just the normal amount like before the insomnia.

I feel for you having to get up at six during the week. Like you said, you’d probably be healed by now if you could sleep in later. I agree because that’s what really helped me – not having to worry about when I get up.

I’m still not recovered but I’m learning some things about myself at least. I was going to postpone getting back into ACT until after I came home from my trip and just take Ambien every night. So I took Ambien the night before I left because I had an early flight. Then I took it the next night again. I woke up the next day feeling absolutely rotten. The good thing was that it reminded me that you can have worse sleep with sleeping pills. So I made the determination to get back to ACT the very next night. Two of the last three nights have been so so, and one was pretty good. About what I expected. But none were as bad as how I felt after taking the sleeping pill the second night.

Tonight I will take another Ambien because we’ve got to get up at 4:00 to catch an early flight again. But this time I feel good about taking the pill. Dr. Kat said that it’s much better to take a pill as a “decision” which is what I’m doing instead of out of frustration. Then it’s less likely to impede your progress. I’ll get back on ACT the very next night.

[Deb]

Pam – so glad you finally found something to help you through SRT and ACT. One of the worst things about insomnia is the feeling of hopelessness you can get when you’ve tried so many things, gone to different doctors and therapists and nothing lasts. I’ve really felt for some people on this forum who were suicidal after struggling with this so long. I think it’s really great that you are an optimist. Otherwise I don’t see how you could have survived 20 years with this!

I was curious about how your sleep is now in comparison to before you found SRT and ACT. How many total hours were you sleeping, how long did it take you to fall asleep, how often would you wake up and how long would you then stay awake in comparison to now?

Yes, ACT is simple but not easy. I was recently thinking about why it works so well. That’s because it teaches us how to “let go.” Instead of trying to do anything to fix our sleep, we give up that struggle, let go and then accept whatever happens. It’s what normal sleepers do all the time. But they’re not consciously aware that they are “letting go” because it seems so natural and they’ve been doing it all their life.

[Deb]

Mac – just a thought. I know I’ve said this before, but maybe now you might be more open to this. You said that you really believe you would sleep so much better if you could get up at 7. But right now you just don’t have that option. So how about “accepting” it (ha ha) and just shifting your bed time to say 9:30 to 10:00 instead of 10:30 to 11:00. Just tell yourself that this would just be temporary until you’re healed. It would sort of be like when you told yourself it was just temporary when you did SRT and pushed yourself to stay up later. You’re just shifting your schedule in the opposite direction temporarily. Then when you’re sleeping through the night with no early wake ups, you could go back to your old schedule.

I realize that there would be the initial anxiety about doing this and possibly waking up even earlier, and it might take a little while to get used to it and to start relaxing about it. But you’re already getting better about relaxing through practicing ACT. Maybe the shift would make the difference that you need.

[Author]

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