[Manfred]

@Deb, thanks. I too thinking of going back to CBT-I. I did subscribe Martins couse in November and it helped. The couse is terminated. And… I have this terrible relapse with more anxiety than ever. Therefore I am wondering what to do.

[Deb]

The free course may be terminated but the paid course should still be available. Just email Martin and ask. It helped me tremendously and reduced my anxiety knowing that I had someone to “hold my hand” when I had tons of anxiety in the beginning.

[Manfred]

Thanks @Deb – so you had intensive anxiety too? How did you cope with it while doing CBTI? I do’t know if going out of bed only to sit anxiously in the lviing room (instead of doing “relaxing” activities” is the way to go??

[Deb]

Yes I had intense anxiety and the catastrophizing. I think most of us here on the forum all went through this. That’s how this darn anxiety became chronic, with all our worrying! When I started SRT, I saw how well it was working and then my anxiety went down a lot. I was lucky in that right away I was sleeping well 5 nights out of 7. I didn’t do so well with the SC though on the other 2 nights. I hated getting up and would only get up once or twice instead of as long as needed. I struggled a lot on those nights.

Last night was another long night. Laid in bed a long time not struggling, but not sleeping either. Finally caught some sleep in the morning so I’m ok today. I thought I was on my way to recovery but maybe not yet. Maybe it’s just going to take longer this time. Will have to accept that. I can still slip into some catastrophizing these days, wondering if I’m training my brain to stay awake all night and sleep a few hours in the morning. But I know this thinking is not helpful. Have to remind myself of Carlos in the book, whose sleep didn’t improve for 2 weeks. I’ve only been doing this a few days now with no props.

[Manfred]

@Deb – what about your anxiety when you did stimulus control and were out of bed? The theory is that you should do some “relaxing acitivity” then. But since I leave bed, when my anxiety is too high for sleeping, there is nothing “relaxing” when I leave my bed.

[Deb]

Yes I got out of bed. I usually read and sometimes wrote in my journal. What has relaxed you in the past?

Tell us more about your experience with CBT-I when you did Martin’s course. How was SC and SRT for you then? Did your anxiety go down?

[Manfred]

Well, my sleep window was 6 hours. I needed to go out of bed only 1 time per night for just a few days. I playd cards (solitaire). But I can’t really focus or relax, because my mind is ruminating.

In November, my anxiety went away after just a week or so. This round, anxiety is more intense, giving me also intrusive thoughts when I try to sleep. Not easy.

I know all the theory, but the moment I go to bed… And lots of anticipatory anxiety.

[Deb]

Manfred – hopefully through doing CBT-I the anxiety will start going down again. Once we start sleeping better, it tends to go down. Have you tried the mindfulness yet? Seems it would help you.

Mac – how’s this week been for you?

Last night was better for me. Fell asleep within an hour. I think I had light sleep mixed with regular sleep because I woke up feeling not fully rested even though I slept till 7:30. But do feel that I’m back on track. Anxiety is going down. This is my forth night practicing ACT the right way, without any props. Just lay in bed and do nothing.

[Manfred]

Thsnks Deb. I really wonder how one does lay in bed and do nothing. My anxiety and racing mind wouldn’t let me. But I gutes that this is the essence if ACT. and normal sleepers.

[gsdmom]

Today is my 10 month anniversary with insomnia, ugh. Last night my mind and body thought is would celebrate by staying up all night! This is the first no sleep night since mid-November, and that is because since then I’ve been taking 5mg of Ambien on the nights where I just don’t feel like I’m going to sleep, about 7x since Nov. But since I didn’t have to work , I thought I would just lay there and rest, and try to stay calm. I did have energy to vacuum, and hike the dog for 25 minutes, go food shopping, pay bills and will make dinner. But if I had to do critical thinking, that would not work very well.

I was starting to get better sleep since about Christmas, last week 5 nights in a row of falling asleep in 5 minutes and sleeping 7-7.5 hours. Then a couple days ago falling asleep quickly stopped. I liked what KarenP wrote about practicing mindfulness – daily. Once I start to feel better I get out of that habit, and like her, stress brings insomnia on much more quickly than my life prior to insomnia. So now I’ll listen to some guided meditation this afternoon. I also wanted to mention I got really great sleep after my last two acupuncture sessions that were 6 days apart. Here’s hoping the sleep drive will kick in tonight and I and everyone else here will have a deep and restful sleep tonight!

[Steve]

gsdmom – Sorry you didn’t get any sleep last night gsdmom. We all know how rough that can be. My sleep started going south some last week. I was doing acupuncture weekly for 7 weeks straight and then skipped a week. The week I would have went if I continued weekly is when I started getting less sleep. I wonder if stopping acupuncture had anything to do with it? I go back tonight so I’ll see if my sleep picks up again. Even if it does, I’m not sure I can afford weekly sessions. Does your acupuncturist advise you to take herbal supplements? I was getting a lot of 6.5 to 7.5 sleeps until I regressed this past week. Now it’s more like 5. And I wake up after the first hour. I haven’t seemed to be able to stop that yet. I think having to get up for work has a lot to do with it. That’s one of the unwelcome thoughts I deal with when I wake up and can’t get back to sleep right away.

[gsdmom]

Hi Steve, regarding acupuncture and herb recommendations – they have not recommended any herbal products for insomnia, but have offered some supplement advice for two other conditions. I feel if someone asks for herbal stuff they will offer, but they don’t push it. I take ashwagandha once or twice a day for stress. I know that no supplements will get me to sleep. My last three nights were bad, aggravated by my spouse so today I will try another acupuncture treatment, hoping to sleep well tonight. Even though I’ve had some bad nights recently I feel as though something has improved. The last two times I went to acupuncture during the day, I was able to relax and almost sleep, my mind becoming lazy and drifting, although I could faintly hear things in my surroundings. In general, in the past, I was not able to ever nap or drift off like that.

Sorry you have regressed too. Like you, I often have issues with the first hour of sleep. I think I am in the light sleep stage for too long and then for some reason it feels like my brain cannot progress into the second stage of sleep and then I wake up. Often I can go back to sleep quickly, but not at all this week. It’s awful insomnia seems to take so long to improve, but at least we are improving. I remember reading some of your posts earlier in the year where you hardly slept at all, so when I read you can sometimes sleep 6.5- 7.5 hours, that is good news and I sincerely hope you can achieve that again soon.

[Steve]

gsdmom – Thanks for replying. I take that ashwagandha as well. My acupuncturist recommended it to me although I don’t get it from her. I buy it off of Amazon. She told me it can help sleep because it is supposed to reduce anxiety. But it doesn’t make you sleep directly. I’m sorry to hear your sleep has been poor recently. Hopefully, your acupuncture treatment will get you back on track. I had my acupuncture treatment yesterday but I never really sleep well on the night I get it. I think it’s because I get my treatments around 6:00 or 6:30 at night after work. After she sticks the needles in and leaves me for about 20 minutes, I usually do my breathing meditation and that’s when I go to sleep a little as it’s very relaxing. Not long, but I think just enough that it harms my sleep drive for that night. It’s very difficult for me to get home and sleep after that. However, the next couple of nights I usually sleep well. Last night, was really bad as I only got about 2 to 3 hours of sleep so I am a little out of it today. This whole last week and a half, except for one night, have been lousy for me so after last night’s session, I hope I can pick it up again.

I’m really sorry you have regressed as well. We both seemed to be on the upswing. I guess we just have to keep sticking to the fundamentals of ACT. It must be harder for you what with your spouse causing problems and I’m really sorry for that. I hope you sleep well tonight. Keep me posted how you are doing. I am praying for you.

[Daf]

Just checking in.

These days I do now say I am fully cured from this odd condition that I suffered with for over 2 years.

Sorry that some of you, who have all been a great help to me in the past, as still struggling a bit from time to time.

The two key things that did it for me..

1. Practising sleep restriction. I kept sleep and time in bed and down to 4 hours for about 3 weeks, then gradually built up. Now I usually get between 5.5hrs and 6.5hrs, not that I really ever count it too much these days. I did not worry about getting up time or going to bed time – just slept only AT NIGHT & only when tired. Started off on couch in front of TV. Then after 2 months was of enough confidence to go up to bed when felt myself dropping off. No nil sleep nights for at least 7 months now. I know it is gone for good. Progress was gradual though, so be patient.

2. Realising that I had been through other times in my life when I got obsessed about something. Worrying about sleep was just the latest thing. Once I realised I was an obsessive type and had done this and “been there” before, not only did it really smash the insomnia, but it made me a better person too – more balanced and genuinely laid back and happy. I’m of the very strong belief that many on this thread might benefit by asking themselves if they’ve also been obsessive about other events in the past – and accept themselves. Acceptance and realisation might just be the key to your freedom and getting better. It had a huge impact for me.

3. If you are regularly getting at least 5 hours sleep, but still feel bad, I wonder if there are other issues, such as maybe depression that need to be looked at with the help of a suitably qualified professional experienced in talking therapies like CBT.

4. When things were really bad a little Mindfulness and Acceptance got me through the day. I don’t practice much now – but am generally more laid back. And I found a very tiny dose of mirtazapine helped a little (1.9mg), but is not essential. (Generally I’m against drugs – and the main factors were 1 and 2 listed here).

Please listen to the podcast I did with Martin called, Insomnia Success with CBTis and ACT / Mindfulness – again! The bit covering obsession is towards the end of the thing – but it really was important – I can still remember where and when it hit me. (After a HIT run in our lovely park here in Sidcup in March 2019!) Think God may have directed me, ha! but you don’t have to be a believer to find the answer!

I just checked in here to help you and to see how you are doing. And I wish you all well.

Daf (David)

[Deb]

Hi Daf – glad you’re doing well. And thanks for checking in.

I’m having a hard time right now. This relapse has hit with a vengeance. I finally decided I needed some help so I’m working with Dr. Kat again. It’s helped me gain some clarity which I needed. Sometimes you’re struggling and not accepting and you don’t even realize it. When I had done ACT back in July, it worked so quickly, in less than two weeks and it was easier in a way. I mostly had light sleep and then it consolidated. So I wasn’t conscious most of the time. But this time I’ve had a lot of very long nights, where I’m awake (or at least I think I am) for hours. Dr. Kat pointed out that I was comparing my different experiences instead of accepting what’s happening right now. So I’m trying to accept the long nights, which is not easy.

Mac – how are you?

[Author]

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