[Manfred]

@David May I ask you a few questions:

1. Do I understand it correctly that you had a sleep window of just 4 hours for 3 weeks?? I thought one shouldn’t go under 5,5 hours (Martin is teaching this).

2. Can u explain a bit more how you dealt with this “obsessive thing”. I am also very obsessive about my sleep. I have intensive sleep anxiety and at night also intrusive throughts.

Thanks in advance

Manfred

[Mac0908]

Hi Deb. Interesting that your last post was the first email notification I’ve gotten in a while. Anyway, these last couple of weeks have really been a bit of a whirlwind for me so it’s hard to say exactly where I’m at. I had my hardwood floors refinished which kept me out of my house for almost a week and I stayed with my parents for half the time and a hotel for a couple of nights as well. Some nights I slept great and others I didn’t. (mostly anxiety bc of worrying about how my floors would turn out!)

Then on Thursday of last week I came down with a bad sinus infection so I’ve been a little all over the place as far as going to bed early/late, but overall I’ve been sleeping ok. Still not getting full on totally refreshing nights for weeks on end though, I can tell you that much. But with that being said, I’m absolutely better than I was during that bad phase while approaching the new year back in December. Will check back in soon.

I really feel for you during your relapse here, Deb. I know you are proactive about it and that’s great but it’s just a shame to see the anxiety take over again. Is it mostly just sleep onset as usual? Or are there other things going on? When do you feel the anxiety come on the most?

[Mac0908]

Strange, my last post didn’t go through I guess…

I had answered you, Deb. The last 2 weeks have been a bit of a whirlwind for me. I’ve been out of the house(staying at parents as well as a hotel) while my hardwood floors were being refinished and then I was sick with a bad cold the last 5 days. Some nights I slept very well, others I didn’t. Overall though I’m doing much better than I was during that very rough phase last month leading up to the new year. That being said, I still haven’t gotten a good couple of weeks of good sleep in. I really want to see that soon.

Sorry that you are struggling so hard with your relapse. May I ask with regards to the anxiety that has returned for you, when exactly does it affect you? Before bed? While in bed? Etc.

[gsdmom]

Hi Deb! I’m so sorry you are having such a difficult time. I’m back and forth with good and bad stretches. I had about 10 nights in a row where my mind would just not shut off. If I had to work the next day, I’d take an ambien, and if not I’d barely sleep, one night not sleeping until 5am, but then was able to sleep until almost 8am (usually the pets wake me early). My last two night were better sleeping 6 and 7 hours, doing mild Stimulus Control helped. Thanks for posting the info from Dr. Kat – not to compare your different experiences with the one you are having now. I am doing that because your brain wants to make sense of things or fix things based on past experiences.

You mention light sleep often, I have that too. I just ordered a FitBit that tracks your sleep. Has anyone on this forum tried a sleep tracker to see how long you are actually sleeping and in what stages? I know back in July when I had a sleep study done, I felt like I did not sleep at all but the doctor said I slept enough for them to get a study so I’ve been curious about my sleep stages since then. And I had hoped by now I’d be over insomnia, but not yet. I’m always hopeful we will all recover, it is just a super long process.

[Deb]

I didn’t get any of these posts after my last one. Guess I need to unsubscribe again and then subscribe.

Mac – it’s not really a lot of anxiety that I’m experiencing. What’s happening is that I’m going to bed, practicing ACT and just letting my mind wander like I did before insomnia. But I’ll lay there for hours, just not falling asleep. Finally at some point I’ll realize that I’ve been awake for hours and then experience frustration.

I’ve been keeping a sleep diary the last couple weeks in order to keep track of what I’m thinking and doing. So for instance within the last week there was one night when my thoughts were that I was so frustrated that it’s taking so long this time to recover in comparison to before. Another night my thoughts were that I was so frustrated because I’m so tired when I go to bed and yet still can’t sleep. Most of these thoughts came after lying in bed already hours doing nothing and thinking nothing, and not when I first went to bed. In addition to keeping track of my thoughts, I’m keeping track of my actions as well, in particular when I resort to a drink or Ambien to go to sleep. When I look over my diaries I realize that I’ve had a drink or Ambien many times when I’ve gotten frustrated. So I really need to learn how to deal better with my frustration instead of resorting to these crutches, or I’ll never learn to sleep naturally. There’s only been one time when I went for more than one or two nights without taking anything. I’m never going to heal that way.

It helped a lot to talk to Dr. Kat last week because I could then recognize more clearly that I’m not accepting my experience, but struggling with it, which will never lead to sleep. Last night for a change I was able to accept it. Again I lay in bed for hours and finally at about 4 or 5 I realized that I was still awake and not sleeping. I got frustrated but then reminded myself that this thinking is not helping me. I was able to use some mindfulness and just name the thoughts I was having, “I’m having the thought, ‘I’m never going to heal.'” “I’m having the thought, ‘This is just too hard to do.'” “I’m having the thought, ‘I’m going to be zombie tomorrow.'” Etc. That helped me separate from the thought, and then I calmed down. I was able to sleep a little eventually. I considered it a victory that I was able to deal my thoughts in a more helpful way instead of letting the frustration take over me and lead me to take a drink or pill. Now if I could just do this enough nights in a row so that my system starts to settle down and actually start falling asleep sooner. But it’s hard, especially dealing with things at 4 or 5 in the morning after hours without any sleep.

[Mac0908]

Well Deb there must be some sort underlying (even light) anxiety going on IMO if you are having this much trouble again. As you said, you’re “struggling” with your failure to fall asleep instead of just accepting these returning issues. That’s the main problem. So glad to hear that you are working with someone to help you. I wonder Deb, whats your sleep timeframe/window like? Are you doing anything at all different than when you were going through that very long successful run? Might be a naive question to ask but perhaps you are going to be when you are not that sleepy at all?

[Daf]

Hi Manfred,

Yes I just went for 4 hours a night at first, which worked for me and was heck of a lot better than nil hours.

Everything is explained in the podcast, including the very important bit about obsessiveness. That bit is towards the end I think.

Good luck. David

[Deb]

Yes, Dr. Kat said that I need to accept the sleep issues that I’m having now and don’t compare it with my previous experience. I’m not doing anything different. I’m tired every night I go to bed, so that’s not the problem. Especially lately I’ve been exhausted and still can’t fall asleep. Like the night before last I only had one hour of sleep and was a zombie all day yesterday. Yet last night I still couldn’t go to sleep and hours passed.

[Mac0908]

Well it happened. My first bad night/zombie day of 2020. I guess I should be happy it took this long, right? Still doesn’t matter to me. This just feels brutal. Was a pretty surprising bad night, too in the sense that I had an awakening at 3:45am! I had some stuff on my mind before bedtime, I’ll admit that, but still, nothing too wild. So 3:45am, geez, that’s odd, I thought. Haven’t seen that kind of time in a LONG time. (and yes, I know I looked at the clock which was a mistake) So I wondered if it had something to do with the antibiotic Amoxillin that I am on for my sinus infection that I began taking just yesterday morning, but sleep problems are not listed as a side effect anywhere at all. Stomach pain is however, and I experienced that pretty significantly yesterday. When I woke however, I didn’t feel any pain. Anyway I didn’t fall back asleep and boy am I suffering right now. Back to normal tonight hopefully, with ZERO intentions of looking at that clock during any awakenings.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 11 months ago by Mac0908.

[Steve]

Deb – Sorry to hear you are having a hard time of it. I think it’s a wise move to have had that session with Dr. Kat. If I remember right, you had a time credit so you might as well use it when you need it. I understand why she doesn’t want you to compare this experience with your previous ones but I will say this. If I remember right, the first two times you started ACT, you were coming off of CBT-i where you were getting about 5 nights of good sleep to about 2 nights of bad. So you were in good shape to start ACT. In this past relapse of the last four weeks or so, you were pretty much only getting to sleep with the use of a drug or alcohol. So I would think that your body and mind needs to break that connection. Once you do that, I think you should start seeing positive results. How did you sleep last night? I wish you well and hope you get back on track soon.

[Deb]

I had a good session with Dr. Kat today. Yes, Steve, I did have some time left over from August, so I was able to use that last week. This week is part of a paid session. I split the hour in half so saw her 30 minutes today and will see her again next week for 30 minutes. This seems to be plenty enough time to talk.

She helped me realize that I’m probably trying too hard and as a result are tense deep down, even though I think I feel calm. Back in July when I recovered so quickly I really didn’t have to use much mindfulness. But now I’m realizing that I need to start practicing it and hopefully it will help me be more calm overall and deal better with the fears and frustrations that come up (and any zombie days.)

Mac – Sorry you had a bad night. You always seem to get back on track though. I wonder if you could use more mindfulness too.

[KarenP]

Deb-
It sounds as if I’m going through the same thing as you. My last post on January 7, I was doing great! I tried weaning myself off of my melatonin 2 weeks ago, and it was taking me longer to fall asleep so I reinstated it. But, downward spiral… I had my first Nil night two nights ago. Slept great the next night, because I was exhausted. Then couldn’t fall asleep for 3 hours last night. I did all the welcoming, accepting thoughts etc. but I felt myself struggling. I got up and read for a half hour and went back to sleep for 2 hours. Had to go to the bathroom and wasn’t able to go back to sleep. Zombie day. I honestly think I’m relaxed in bed , but sleep just doesn’t happen. I’m singing Happy birthday to anxiety, noticing my breath and meditating every day. But I’m a mess. I actually think I need to go back to CBTI for a bit, incorporating ACT while I’m in bed. My window was 10 to 6 and I slept 6-7 hours most nights. I just went on Zoloft yo help with anxiety. Praying it helps. Deb, how do I book an appointment with Dr. Kat? I sent an email. My best to all.

[Steve]

Karen – Just a thought. When did you go on Zoloft and when did your sleep problems start again? Anti-depressants/anti-anxiety meds such as Zoloft are known for causing insomnia. That’s why doctor’s sometimes prescribe a benzo type med to help with sleep until you get used to the anti-anxiety meds. However, you DON’T want to get involved with benzos as they are too addictive and coming off of a benzo addiction has been described as worse than coming off of a heroin addiction Just a thought that it is the Zoloft possibly causing your sleep problems.. Other than that, I would have to say that it sounds as if you are trying too hard to get back to sleep.

[KarenP]

Steve, No, I’ve only done Zoloft for 2 nights. It was prescribed for me at night because it tends to cause drowsiness.

[Deb]

Karen – sorry you’re having a hard time too. To make an appointment with Dr. Kat, go to the sleep school website, click on the middle box that says Insomnia (not Professional or Baby), then click on Private Clinics. Go down the page on the left side where it says Book Video Clinic. Make sure you read everything on their cancellation policy if there’s any chance you might change your mind. If the cancellation doesn’t fall within a certain period, you won’t get your money back.

Dr. Kat is only seeing clients two Thursdays a month now. I would think there would be a high demand for this but I guess a lot of people never heard of ACT. During your first session you can ask her about half hour sessions if that would work better for you. Take care.

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