[Deb]

Sorry you had a bad weekend night, Mac. Friday night was bad for me too. I had a Saturday seminar to attend and somehow in the back of my mind was some worry about waking up on time. I ended up awake most of the night. Blah! Luckily I got back on track last night and slept well. How was the night before your special event?

[Mac0908]

Another “great” piece of info I got this morning after my first check up in two years last week. I have high cholesterol. That’s odd, I thought. I’m getting older, sure, but at 35 should I really have high cholesterol considering I don’t usually eat THAT bad. I googled some stuff and although there’s no concrete evidence, there are quite a few articles explaining how some studies apparently show a link between lack of sleep and your “good” cholesterol levels lowering. Oh joy, another thing to add to my list of worries.

Also, Deb, I responded to your previous question and it says my post is “awaiting moderation” again. No clue what’s going on with this forum lately.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 9 months ago by Mac0908.

[Daf]

Acceptance and mindfulness is not about stopping thoughts at all, it is about letting them happen and “being OK” with that. Watching the thoughts, just observing them, not trying to stop them.

You must let thoughts happen. It is a fallacy that the best mindfulness practitioners and Buddhists in monasteries in Tibet are in a Zen like state in which they don’t have lots of thoughts. They have thoughts, they just observe them.

And the point about ACT for sleep is to accept the thoughts and accept “how things are”.

If your attitude is, “Well I’m doing this acceptance sleep for the sole purpose of sleep” I think you’ve rather missed the point.

I’d refer you to the podcast I did in the Success Stories and the link to the Jon Kabat Zinn youtube pieces there, about what mindfulness really is.

Having said all that, whilst ACT and mindfulness did very much help me to cope with those nil sleep nights I used to have (and deal with the anxiety I used to get whenever I had a nil sleep night). it only helped a little with actually beating insomnia.

If you listen to the podcast you’ll find that what really did help me, was my realising I was actually an obsessive type of person (just the realisation of that was huge) and also my restriction of sleep to 4.5hrs a night and then slowly building up from there, plus of course doing all the sleep hygiene things ( though the sleep hygiene ought to be a given and surely hardly needs repeating to folks on here!)

Realising I would sleep in the end also helped, plus the fact that I simply do not need as much sleep as other people also helped me. (Now I generally sleep between 4.5 and 7 hours net of sleep a night). Now over 9 months since a non sleep night. Not sure though as I don’t count it any more nor record it.

Hope that helps
David Lawrenson

[Deb]

Mac – that’s interesting about the high cholesterol. At my last annual physical, my doctor told me that too! I’ve never had high cholesterol before and of course the check up was during the worst of my insomnia.

David – Dr. Guy also says that about mindfulness in his book – it’s not to be used to go to sleep, but just to help calm oneself down by observing our thoughts instead of buying into them.

I didn’t use much mindfulness or acceptance of my thoughts/feelings in my recovery, except for the “Acceptance that I may or may not sleep each particular night” which is the main point of ACT – to stop struggling to sleep. And that is what led to my recovery. After making peace with the possibility of not falling asleep, I could finally relax and do nothing but lay there in bed and let my mind wander like before the insomnia. The first night I was awake most of the night, but by the 2nd night the time spent awake was already decreasing to 2-3 hours, 1-2 hours, to 1 hour and now less than a half hour. So accepting sleepiness on a nightly basis helped me completely relax and then sleep naturally came.

[Daf]

Debs, Sounds like you’ve got the right idea. But many struggle with this mindset… And it’s not easy, takes practice.

[Deb]

David – I was lucky in that I pretty quickly figured out how to accept things and relax in bed. But it’s tricky for a lot of people. They’ll do mindfulness in bed, or focus on emptying their mind, or do relaxing exercises, or spend too much time on accepting their thoughts & feelings – whatever – but they are all forms of “doing” which keep them awake. That’s why I keep encouraging people to see Dr. Kat, to get individualized help. Otherwise, no matter how long they try, they won’t see results.

[Mac0908]

Funny you mention that Deb. It actually ended up being canceled! …And I ended up having a pretty decent night of sleep 😛

I really think I can benefit from some more ACT. So easy to get comfortable/lazy in all of this even after just a couple of good nights.

[Daf]

…and to just add re the obsessiveness in previous post, my slightly obsessive ways created an obsession with sleeping (or not), (the sleep issue first started after a breathing / asthma condition developed).

I believe the obsessiveness is a form of anxiety and hence insomnia is actually tied up with anxiety, for most people.

I also am convinced (partly from all I have read on forums like this) that most people who are obsessive are also successful and driven and thoughtful / maybe over-caring types of people. But that good stuff can morph into over-obsession (in this case, obsession with sleep).

Think about it: Do you think many people who have a genuine “breeze through life” attitude ever worry about sleep. (Of course, you may not really know them, deep down. Even my many of my closest friends would not think I’m obsessive, but I am)

Hope this helps.

In the Success Stories, the podcast is called “Success-with-cbti-and-act-mindfulness”

Daf (David Lawrenson)

[Deb]

David – I’ve also got that obsessiveness too and that wanting-to-help nature (maybe too much) and am sort of driven (I find it hard to do nothing and just relax.) I also notice that many of us go into great detail about what’s going on with us. I wonder if this is part of the obsessiveness. I’m lucky that I’m married to someone who is the total opposite of me. He’s laid back and falls asleep within 5 minutes. When he’s not working he knows how to relax and watches sports, plays video games or watches movies. He’s had Parkinson’s for 9 years, but doesn’t obsess about it, taking one day at a time. As a result he’s doing really well for someone with this condition including skiing, taking hikes and bike riding. He also does very high level intellectual work as an astrophysicist, keeping his mind sharp. If he missed some sleep, he would not worry about it. But I obsessed over it when it first happened and that was the beginning of my chronic insomnia.

[whitelori]

Deb – I will definitely let you know if I do go with Kat and what I have learned. Thanks for all your support and help. I did read through the chapter on acceptance again, and one thing that struck me this time was to think about how I feel about my insomnia and just the reiteration of how the struggle, the battle, was self created. If only I was that person who could brush things off think about the fear differently. Thanks for sharing about your husband! I found it quite admirable the attitude he has. Mine is also the total opposite of me, which is a good thing! I have had insomnia the whole time we have been together, married, over 25 years so bless his heart, he has been through it all. He is the calming force most of the time. He is an intellectual!

David – I think you are right that many insomniacs are obsessive and more anxious. I have always been a worrier and deep, over thinker. I noticed in your post that you did find sleep restriction in addition to the ACT the most helpful. Do you get out of bed when you could not sleep? What I’m finding so far with ACT is inconsistency. I seem to get it one night, and then not the next. With sleep restriction, I struggle with getting up at the alarm or end of the sleep window IF I have fallen into a deep sleep. I know getting up is supposed to build sleep drive for the next night, but for me, this does not happen. In fact, I have just as much if not more difficulty. I get frustrated to be awakened if I am in fact sleeping. Also, how often do you practice mindfulness during the day? Do you set a time or just try to do it every time you think of it throughout the day?

[Deb]

Hi Whitelori – glad you have a husband like mine who has a calming effect on you. We are very lucky! Just wondering what you mean when you said that with ACT you get it right one night and not the next. About your having to wake up with the alarm clock, here’s my take on that. When I practice ACT I throw out the strict sleep window and SC (getting out of bed). I go to bed at the usual time around 11 with my husband. I then let myself sleep as long as I need to, even waking up at 8:30. That’s because in the beginning of practicing ACT I may only sleep a few hours or the sleep may be light, so I need extra time to sleep. Now it’s been almost 2 weeks since I started, so my sleep is consolidating and I’m waking up earlier and closer to my usual time of 7 to 7:30. So I don’t think it’s a good idea to combine CBT-I with ACT. Dr. Kat will tell you that as well. You want to learn to relax about sleep and having the strict rules of the sleep window and SC will not help you relax.

[whitelori]

Deb-So night before last, I had told myself that there is no longer a struggle for us (meaning me and my thoughts) with sleep. I had a fairly decent night. Then last night, I was back to being wide awake again and despite doing nothing, I just laid there. I examined to see if I was struggling, and I don’t feel I was. Just thinking a lot like I normally do about other things and something did happen last night that spurred me into thinking mode. The reason I mentioned combining the two I think, is because I thought David said he had results with a sleep window, but had adopted the ACT acceptance, etc., too. He seems well versed with it. I know ACT is completely different than CBT-I. I was reading how different they are not just in the insomnia realm, but just in general mental therapy. But I am pretty sure I have read that people with insomnia have used a combined approach at least with the thinking aspect? I understand though that Kat does not think this should be done.

[Daf]

Hi Guys,

Quick reply.

Yes, it’s obvious from just reading the posts that the people on here with severe insomnia (and those who have recovered) are deep thinkers, bright, seem above average intelligence and perhaps over caring, sensitive people. (I have said this before). Likely therefore to over think and be obsessive, and that can lead on to anxiety, in this case, anxiety about sleep.

I believe that ACT and CBTi / SRT are in fact complimentary generally. However, it was SRT/ CBTi that really got me better. ACT helped a bit to just chill but mainly to better deal with those nil sleep nights I used to get – whether at night or the next day.

No, I rarely do mindfulness now. Only occasionally when something stresses me out a lot – like having to deal with my elderly Mum and Dad. I might then take 20 mins out. But I’m too driven and active a person to stop my day and do it, but if you can, then great, it will do you no harm.
The 7 attitude of mindfulness in that video of Jon Kabat Zinn are excellent ideals to live by, whether you’re a catholic like me, Jewish, Muslim or atheist. It is just good advice originally from our Buddhist friends!

Did I get up if I could not sleep? Sometimes, but not often – and if I did, it might be after about an hour or two of lying there. If I did, I would watch TV – something light like a nature programme. I don’t agree with all SRT strictures and the one about getting up after 15 mins of not sleeping is one I think is not for me.
Plus I don’t think a strict getting out of bed time is key. My start was just getting 4.5hrs a night at first, but that could be 11 to 3.15 or 1 to 515. I built from there. One needs to vary time getting up to still have a flipping life at the weekends and be a normal person!
Yes it is hard getting up after only 4.5hrs, but I did it most of the time. Occasionally I said, “hell, I wanna stay in bed and sleep for 8 hrs” and I did, but then was cool I may not get tired the next night, so would stay up for a long time. Don’t be too hard on yourself but try and stay near to the programme of sleep restriction in the early days.

Have a listen to the podcast if you’ve not already. All this is in there.

[Manfred]

@David – I listen to the entire podcast, very interesting – thank you. Nevertheless, I would like to ask you a few questions to get even a better understanding:

1. In the podcast, you said that a big step forward was the realization how much you obsessed about sleep, that you have an obsessional personality and obsessed about other things in your life too. I am very much the same – but what I would like to know: how did this help you? Knowing that you have an obsessional personnality is not making the obsessions going away, is it?

2. You worked with very a very short sleep window. How long did you stay with a SW of under 5 hours?

3. In your last post, u mention that your sleep windows vary as to the start hour: 11 to 3.15 or 1 to 515. I thought it is important to always wake up at the same time. How did you do it exactly?

4. Wasn’t it depressing to start your day at 3:15 or 5:15, esp. on weekends? What did you do when u wake up soooo early?

5. Did you also have daytime worrying and anxiety? How did u deal with that?

Thanks a lot for help in advance

Manfred

[Daf]

Hi Manfred,

Realising I was obsessive DID help me, maybe not others.
Because I could see a pattern in my life when I realised I could, from time to time, became obsessive about things, that self knowledge just seemed to help me. “Oh hear I go again. I don’t have to be like that. I’ve done that before about this matter or that matter. I don’t need to do this”
Having that attitude helped.
I guess it is like a recovering alcoholic – they see the signs and the drivers coming up that may make them relapse, so they do whatever they need to do to avoid those signs.

For me I think the same getting up time is too restrictive. E.g. How would that work if you wanted to stay out late on a Saturday, like a normal person does? So I just targeted 4.5 hours and was flexible about when I got it, as long as it was at night time.

Was getting up after 4.5 hrs depressing?. No, not when you used to get nil sleep nights, not at all.
I was always in a good mood to have got 4.5hrs and at least, some sleep, so no, not depressed at all. And I functioned fine on 4.5hrs, which I think I did for about 3 weeks, then increased gradually.
I now normally get about 5.5 to 6.5 hours net sleep, but it varies. I try to avoid getting any more than 6.5 hours because I know I wont be tired the next night at all – and I wish to avoid that.

After any sleep, I would get up, have a cup of tea, watch TV, get on the internet, maybe go for a run outside.

When I was suffering, after nil sleep nights (or les than 2 hours), yes I’d feel awful – tight feeling in chest and stomach, feeling a bit sick, but mindfulness helped deal with that. Also, writing down my feelings in a journal and focusing on being positive (CBTi) also helped.
Also, I’m lucky to have a supportive wife and friends.

Today, I v occasionally get anxiety feelings come up, especially around some trying family situations. If that happens, I may do a bit of mindfulness and will always go for a walk in a v quiet park and have a chat to myself as I do. It all helps.

Kind regards
David

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