[dutchsailor]

Hi all,

I just joined you, in our strive to make this a useful and strong community.

I think I can claim the title 'insomnia veteran', with over 35 years of continued experience in this intriguing, yet irritating phenomena.

I am really good at falling asleep: within 10-15 minutes, anyplace. Less good at continuing sleep until fresh again; I wake up after 3-4 hours. The only way to get back for a 2nd half night of sleep is, to be active for some 4 hours before returning to bed. Not the easiest way to keep in sync with the rest of the world! It does allow me though to make this post at 4.45 am local time.

I have many things I like. Since I am a very curious man, I love to read and to watch documentary programs which help me to better understand our world and the species populating it (including ourselves). These days, I learn a lot by looking behind the scenes of the crisis, which mainly is a financial crisis. Otherwise, I think (and hope) it will provide us with a good learning opportunity; it might help us develop a better, more resiliant society. On the way, we should develop a new, more humane and sustainable economy. (if you're interested, have a look at e.g. http://www.aftermathproject.com and http://ineteconomics.org)

Professionaly, I am a management consultant. It has given me not only the opportunity to 'survive' with the insomnia, being mildly flexible in working hours, but also to land in many different countries of the world and to work with varying cultures. All helpful to satisfy my curiousity.

Besides, I am a sailor. In 2002 – 2003, I have made a roundtrip Atlantic Ocean together with my eldest son, being away from home for 9 months. Then the sleeping pattern came in quite handy, allowing me to take the night watches…

Enough for a first intro. Let's hope the community will prosper, but also that it will soon no longer be needed because our doctors would have found the ultimate solution for us. This might take a while, I know. But brain science is progressing at great speed, so who knows.

As a first real contribution to the community, I herewith attach a pdf indicating that mid 2010 a new device -the Sleepwave- has been introduced by Philips Medical on the Australian market. The idea is that it 'rocks you to sleep' by magnetic induction (from the outside) on the equilibrium area in our brain. I have no idea whether it works.

[attachment=37:Sleepwave intro persbericht.pdf]Perhaps we have some Australian members who could report on it?

Fred

[BobxT]

Hi,

Until recently, I was using the SleepWave every night.

I have a history of adapting to changing conditions and drugs.

The SleepWave is no different because it seems to have ceased having a noticeable effect.

Not that it had quite the effect that my sleep Doctor informed me of.

Most of his patients reported the rocking motion.

For me I could never feel that apparent motion except if I was standing or walking around the house.

Yes, I know you are not supposed to do that. But it was the only way I could tell that it was working.

My Doctor said it seemed to not work in various degrees for about 20% of his patients.

He said he and most of his staff had tried it and it seemed to work as advertised.

As soon as I lay down, all apparent rocking motion ceased. As I was required during the beta testing here in Australia, to complete a month long diary, I saw that I enjoyed on average an extra hour per night of sleep.

If I stopped using it, I lost that extra hour.

Recently, I have given it up. Perhaps in a couple of months I will try it again and see what happens.

I am beginning to wonder though, whether it is still being serviced by Philips.

The SleepWave Web site has been Down for Maintenance for about 6 weeks.

HTH,

BobxT

[Martin Reed]

Welcome to the forums, Fred – it's always encouraging when 'insomnia veterans' join us to share their experience and expertise! I briefly covered the Sleepwave on the Insomnia Land blog in July 2010:

http://www.insomnialand.com/blog/new-insomnia-cure-helps-you-sleep-like-a-baby/

That being said, I am glad you mentioned it as it prompted Bob to share his experience with the product – I think unbiased, real reviews are extremely hard to come by these days, so now I think we at least have a taste of how it worked for at least one genuine insomniac.

Are you still actively sailing? What kind of medical advice or non-pharma techniques have you tried to combat your insomnia? Has anything proved to be effective, even minimally?

—

If you are ready to stop struggling with insomnia you can enroll in the online insomnia coaching course right now! If you would prefer ongoing phone or video coaching calls as part of a powerful three month program that will help you reclaim your life from insomnia, consider applying for the Insomnia Mastery program.

The content of this post is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied.

[dutchsailor]

'BobxT' wrote:

Hi,

Until recently, I was using the SleepWave every night.

I have a history of adapting to changing conditions and drugs.

The SleepWave is no different because it seems to have ceased having a noticeable effect.

Not that it had quite the effect that my sleep Doctor informed me of.

Most of his patients reported the rocking motion.

For me I could never feel that apparent motion except if I was standing or walking around the house.

Yes, I know you are not supposed to do that. But it was the only way I could tell that it was working.

My Doctor said it seemed to not work in various degrees for about 20% of his patients.

He said he and most of his staff had tried it and it seemed to work as advertised.

As soon as I lay down, all apparent rocking motion ceased. As I was required during the beta testing here in Australia, to complete a month long diary, I saw that I enjoyed on average an extra hour per night of sleep.

If I stopped using it, I lost that extra hour.

Recently, I have given it up. Perhaps in a couple of months I will try it again and see what happens.

I am beginning to wonder though, whether it is still being serviced by Philips.

The SleepWave Web site has been Down for Maintenance for about 6 weeks.

HTH,

BobxT

Hi Bob,

Thanks; this is very useful information for me.

I am attempting to get an answer from Philips about the status of the Sleepwave, especially when it would be introduced in other (European) countries.

Should I receive a useful answer one of these days, I will inform you about it. Then at least you will have some indication what is happening to the product. I also noted that the weblink is down.

I did manage to find some scientific survey into 'rocking', even vendor-independent as far as I can tell. Should you want it, I could make that accesable as well.

Cheers, Fred

[dutchsailor]

'Martin' wrote:

Welcome to the forums, Fred – it's always encouraging when 'insomnia veterans' join us to share their experience and expertise! I briefly covered the Sleepwave on the Insomnia Land blog in July 2010:

http://www.insomnial…ep-like-a-baby/

That being said, I am glad you mentioned it as it prompted Bob to share his experience with the product – I think unbiased, real reviews are extremely hard to come by these days, so now I think we at least have a taste of how it worked for at least one genuine insomniac.

Are you still actively sailing? What kind of medical advice or non-pharma techniques have you tried to combat your insomnia? Has anything proved to be effective, even minimally?

Hi Martin,

Yes, I am still actively sailing, except that my boat has been in maintenance for quite a while now (osmosis). I plan to have it back in the water by May.

You're asking what I have tried so far? Be prepared for a long list …. In terms of therapeutic approaches:

– Hypno-therapy and autogenic training (to relax)

– Acupuncture, Iridology and homeopathy, Total Body Modification

– Transcendental meditation and yoga

– All known home remedies, including CD with calming sea or forest sounds

– Sleeping Training, Sleep deprivation, Phase Shift

– Convential Psy Therapy while improving sleep hygiene

– 3 months strict regularity (Chopra book): 22.30 hours in, 7.00 am out, no evening work, instead after 20.00. only pure relaxing activity, eg evening sauna visit

– Foot massage and chinese herbs

– Very strict diet for five months for supposed Leaking Gut Syndrome: gluten free, lactose free, no caffeine, etc

– EMDR (for re-processing traumatic experience)

Meanwhile, I also had several sleep registrations, which confirmed that there is no physical cause in my case; also that my first 3-4 hours of sleep are of very good quality. .

The above list of tried therapies is long, because I really did not want to give in to medication, that being a very temporarily solution as we all know. However, none of all this has done a thing for my sleeping problem. We have to realise though that that is quite exceptional, since many of these things would surely help other people.

So, I the end I had to fall back on medication. Over time I have been using:

– 5 mg Halcion (long ago)

– Tryptophan & Melatonin (natural substances, short experiments, no effect)

– Flurazepam and Temazapam (these worked for a while)

– Seroxat (during 3 months, no effect at all, also no negative effects when stopped)

– Zolpidem (Stilnoc) 10 mg, taken immediately after waking up around 3.00 / 4.00 am, up to five working days per week (to prevent eroding effectiveness; this did the job quite well; but of course the two weekend days were a nasty contrast)

– Zolpidem 5 mg seven days a week, immediately after awakening, combined with two : ahead of going to sleep a dose of 80mg 5-http and melatonin 5mg (this combi has worked reasonably well for five years or so)

– attempt to replace the Zopidem by the natural Passion Flora, did nothing for me

– attempt to change Zolpidem for Temazepan (10 mg), to see whether this works better after the Zolpidem no longer did the job. No effect on me at all.

[url=””]Undo edits[/url]So, now I am back to square zero and in search for a fresh approach. I might try the Sleepwave, if I can lay my hands on one. Why not? But otherwise, the only sustainable option seems to be to sleep in two shifts (which works very well for me). In this respect, I find the publications telling that this is the traditional, natural sleeping pattern for human beings a great disdcovery. The serious challenge of course being: can one really live so much out of sync with the rest of the world?

Cheers, Fred

[url=””]Undo edits[/url]

[BobxT]

Hi dutchsailor,

I would be very interested in any info you can find out on the Sleepwave product. And in particular the scientific survey into 'rocking'.

Personally, I am a bit dubious on the Philips brand after a two people I know went through the testing procedure at Philips' own Sleep Centers. Here in Melbourne Australia, these centers only promote their own CPAP machines as a closed shop approach.

In both of the people I mentioned, after being dissatisfied and listening to me, they both broke away and tried Resmed S9 Cpap systems and are now happily using the S9 exclusively.

I swapped with one of them my S9 (we were both on the same pressure setting) and it was the best nights sleep for him (after six weeks CPAP for him) and the worst night's sleep for me in my three and a half years of CPAP use. I could not wait to get my own S9 back again.

I told my Sleep Specialist and he said he was not surprised. He had come to that opinion himself as he tries all CPAP systems the reps loan him. But he is not permitted to push any partucular product (here in Australia).

Regards,

BobxT

[dutchsailor]

'BobxT' wrote:

Hi dutchsailor,

I would be very interested in any info you can find out on the Sleepwave product. And in particular the scientific survey into 'rocking'.

Personally, I am a bit dubious on the Philips brand after a two people I know went through the testing procedure at Philips' own Sleep Centers. Here in Melbourne Australia, these centers only promote their own CPAP machines as a closed shop approach.

In both of the people I mentioned, after being dissatisfied and listening to me, they both broke away and tried Resmed S9 Cpap systems and are now happily using the S9 exclusively.

I swapped with one of them my S9 (we were both on the same pressure setting) and it was the best nights sleep for him (after six weeks CPAP for him) and the worst night's sleep for me in my three and a half years of CPAP use. I could not wait to get my own S9 back again.

I told my Sleep Specialist and he said he was not surprised. He had come to that opinion himself as he tries all CPAP systems the reps loan him. But he is not permitted to push any partucular product (here in Australia).

Regards,

BobxT

Hi Bob,

You are hinting at mixed experiences with the Philips Sleeping Laboratory. I am sure they are knowledgeable professionals. Despite this, their diagnosis would always require a second, independent opinion, before embarking on costly, time-consuming therapies. Complicated problems —such as insomnia- require not only highly specialised knowledge, but also a multidisciplinary view and independence. Since this is not the way we have organised our world, we ourselves as the insomnia sufferers need to set your own course. It is good to put trust in your specialist, but one must not be blind to his constraints, perhaps even interests.

If we surrender to diagnosis of any kind, we should be aware of all the potential constraints and dependencies (commercial, professional, etc.) A nice example of tunnel view you can find at http://www.insomnialand.com/blog/?s=ekirch . In 2005 historian Ekirch published evidence about the normality of sleeping in two steps (see ). It took the community of specialised sleeping docs quite a while before becoming aware of this (not being used to look outside the boundary of their own profession). Actually, still few of them know now; most still seem to be ‘asleep’.

We must pay even more attention, if our diagnosing specialist has any direct commercial interest, or if he is specialised in e.g. applying medicine.

What strikes me about your story is the initial misdiagnosis, not recognising that depression can be a cause as well as an effect of insomnia. I keep finding it shocking to detect such a lack of scientific, rigorous thinking, with many professionals in the medical profession. So, what I try to do is placing my own practical experiences in a wider, scientific perspective. These days through the Internet, one can trace lots of scientific papers. This background knowledge allows me to ask my doctors the right question, helping them overcome their own constraints and taking a shared responsibility for the process. I will try to post the articles I found about ‘rocking’ to sleep (cannot attach to this reply, so have to find another route). One article seems fully independent, the others were published in a Philips magazine so should be interpreted with a bit more care.

Meanwhile, on the Philips Sleepwave device, I found out that Philips has no current plans to introduce this on the European market or, I belief, anywhere outside Australia. It might be an indication, that somehow it was not terribly successful, either as a therapy or commercially. Since I’d like to test one anyway, I am in the process of trying to import a Sleepwave from Australia myself. Should you want to get rid of yours, it might be an opportunity to share the cost with me. Trusting your Sleepwave is functioning the way it should, I’d have no problem buying it second hand from you. Or is yours a beta-version, which was later improved on the basis of field tests?

Meanwhile, what you could still try is: sit in a chair and see if the device will rock you to sleep in that position.

Best regards,

Fred

[dutchsailor]

Hi BobxT,,

Meanwhile, I received the following reply from Philips Australia, clarifying the status of the Sleepwave product:

QUOTE Unfortunately the Sleepwave product is not currently available. The product was available in 2010 as part of a pilot program here in Australia to gain some practical experience using the product with patients. As a result of that program, the company is now doing further research and development of the product. UNQUOTE

In a 2nd mail it was indicated that the Sleepwave accessories (ear spirals, a consumable product) would now be hard to get.

So, I guess we will just have to wait for results from this next research step.

The scientific paper I referred to is 'Rocking syncrhonizes brain waves' by Laurence Bayer and a couple of co-authors. You will find it through the following link:

http://labnic.unige.ch/nic/papers/rocking_CB_2011.pdf

Fred

[Martin Reed]

Hi Fred

Maybe this post will give you an additional avenue for investigation:

http://www.insomnialand.com/blog/can-a-hammock-cure-insomnia/

—

If you are ready to stop struggling with insomnia you can enroll in the online insomnia coaching course right now! If you would prefer ongoing phone or video coaching calls as part of a powerful three month program that will help you reclaim your life from insomnia, consider applying for the Insomnia Mastery program.

The content of this post is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied.

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