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I developed my insomnia problem last year after moving and during the move my sleep pattern was screwed up I was sleeping at different times but the strange thing was that when I moved into the new place for the first week or so I was sleeping the full eight hours and then one night I was awakened by a huge surge of adrenaline and ever since then I’ve not been able to get any deep sleep whatsoever I’m talking never get anything besides stage 1.
I have tried sleep deprivation and eventually I get to the point where its hard to hold my head up and then I try to sleep and while I come close falling into a deep sleep somehow I stay stuck in stage 1 its ridiculous and very frustrating because I’ve followed every type of advise out there.
I will say that I did get outta this pattern once already and it was because when this all kicked
off I was extremely worried about it like thought my life was at risk so I was getting no sleepat all and that made for better conditions to build sleep drive and eventually it did andsleepcame for 5 days in a row than on the fifth day when I was happy to be out of this pattern I receive a call that a family member has terminal cancer and needless to say the insomnia came right back and its been that way ever since and the main problem is that now that I know it is not fatal I’m not as worried and I get this very light sleep at night which is completely useless it serves no purpose whatsoever but to make me feel like crap the next day and have zero energy but most of all it doesn’t allow me to build any sleep drive its as if I have to pull an almost all nighter to build the sleep drive that it would take to break this cycle because the
first time I did it I was literally not sleeping at all at night so I really believe that the light sleep
is not helpful at all and I’ve heard sleep experts say stuff like embrace the light sleep and just
rest well that has done nothing but keep stuck.Hi Jess,
I have a similar issue. I tried numerous therapies to break the light sleep cycle to no avail. It’s a bit outside the usual insomnia symptoms, so not many are familiar with or know how to tackle this issue. I tried ACT for a while, but I feel like overtime – the light sleep became a learned behavior. I appreciate you writing on this, as it will aide in bringing awareness to this variation of insomnia that so very little is spoken about. Have you made any progress using sleep restriction? Do you also experience your mind cycling thru stories during the light sleep?
I currently use a 5.5 hr window. Any less, and I fear I’ll be completely dysfunctional.
Shon
I’ve had this problem for a little over a year now so at the beginning it wasn’t a light sleep problem and the conditions were actually better to get out of it because I was going days
with out sleep literally and was starting to feel extremely out of touch with reality because of the sleep deprivation but soon I decided to do the afternoon naps and during these I would actually fall asleep and they were only 45 minutes and the fact that I was able to fall asleep during these afternoon naps told my brain that I could sleep deeply again so it became easier to do it at night and eventually it happened but it all started from going weeks without any sleep and implementing the naps in the afternoon.I’ve also tried acceptance just thinking well that mind set will calm everything down and there will be no pressure on me to sleep I’ll just enjoy the light sleep/rest I get but here months later what’s the result oh now I just get light stage 1 sleep so that cannot be the way out of this.
All I can think is about how I overcame this before and that was from already being very
sleep deprived through not sleeping at night and being in bed with constant mind chatter
that won’t let up but now I get into this pattern where I’m in bed and it feels like I’m sleeping but I know I’m not because my mind is still forming thoughts so I’m half awake which gets in the way of building the sleep drive so I honestly feel its just better to stay alert and go with the thoughts even though you’re gonna not get any sleep and feel awful the next day and maybe for weeks but hopefully what will happen is that you become so tired that the body will be able to crash sometime in the day for a short nap telling the brain that you can go into a deep sleep and be able to accomplish this at night that’s what I’m gonna continue to do because right now as it stands I don’t even get tired enough for a afternoon nap now and my sleep window is 2:00 am to 7:00 am that’s how much being in stage 1 sleep for even a few hours can mess up sleep restriction and make it useless.The other thing that worked for me was very strange so during the first few months of going
through so many sleepless nights and obsessing about my sleep I slowly became frustratedand angry to the point where one after going to bed knowing all the stuff I had been doing to combat this and not being able to sleep once again I had reached my boiling point and literally started screaming and threw a tv remote across the room and I started shaking a lot probably due to adrenaline and then I called a crisis line where they told me to calm down and to take a melatonin which I did and miraculously I slept for a full 8 hours deeply that night, I think the frustration built up from dealing with such a stupid thing like this that can put your life on hold is in itself a barrier to sleep that must be addressed/released in some
way.Hi Jess,
Do u remember if u were dreaming when u said u were in stage 1? Or having vivid images? How can u be sure what stage of sleep u are in? Are u wearing some kind of device to sleep that tells u that? But if u are dreaming, it is definitely NOT stage 1.
Jess, What you described is very akin to my own experience. I also tried ACT for months on end; accept the light sleep and it will eventually deepen. Yet, moons later…here I am.
I’ve gone to countless providers, and they all attempt to treat me for the typical insomnia symptoms; difficulties falling or staying asleep. None are able to comprehend…hello; I am falling asleep most nights ..it’s just hovering in the light N1 (perhaps a bit of N2) stages. After all the back and forth, I realize that I just need to figure how to cure myself.
Do you have any theories on why the light sleep persists? Most everyone say to me, your brain hasn’t forgotten to sleep.. but even when severely sleep deprived, the deep sleep seems unattainable!
To Chee’s point, there may be some REM happening, as I am very aware of my thoughts while in this light sleep state. Dunno if they’re stories or dreams though. Feels more like the former, but if they were dreams, I’d say there’s some REM happening. But REM is very different than deep sleep. Those who believe they’re the same, clearly haven’t been without deep sleep for months on end. Deep sleep allows for restoration and healing. If you have even 1 hr of deep sleep, take my word for it, you’d know!
I know I’m in stage 1 sleep simply because I’m conscious and resting that is not deep sleep
at all and the greatest way to know that I’m not entering deep sleep phase is simply waking up completely exhausted the next day unable to function.I know these so called sleep doctors say that people having insomnia are in fact
sleeping because a machine says so but honestly I think I know my self better than a device does and when I am conscious the entire night and wake up wired and tired I know that no deep sleep has occurred I don’t need a doctor or machine to know that and tbh most of what
they have been saying no offense to them have not worked at all and ironically its been the polar opposite advice that has been working like taking the 30 to 45 minute naps when tired enough to do so the problem as I’ve already described is the light sleep(stage 1) the stage before drifting off that has to be avoided by either staying awake or getting up one or the other personally I prefer staying awake in bed and I don’t believe the identification with not sleeping and the bed I think this has to do with stress and not building enough sleep drive.The light sleep(stage 1) probably persists because this whole thing has been going on for a long time now so you have become less worried in the sense that you’re life is at risk that’s how its been for me I’m less worried about dying from it so therefore there is less significance and importance on getting to the bottom of it now its more of a nuisance not to make it sound like its not a serious problem but subconsciously this pattern has taken hold also because of the not obsessing as much on it you conserve more energy less is being burned in worrying I’m talking extreme worry that was happening at the beginning I think we’ve become more used to this unrefreshing sleep pattern that has set it and that is whats keeping us stuck.
I think the main thing the most important is to change the everyday pattern for instance if you’re getting this light sleep at night make it a priority to recognize it at night when its happening and as hard as it is stay conscious observe what is happening instead of getting the rest that occurs every night I would say notice that your getting this substandard sleep when its happening because back when I had success I would spend the whole night being like whoa I’m not sleeping again what the hell how could this be happening night after night I would be awake in bed all night and only get tired enough to sleep once it was time to wake up and as horrible as it was I built up real sleep drive that would allow me to sleep for 30 minutes the next day, so I would say do whatever you can to get out of this cycle of light sleep don’t accept the light sleep at night notice it complain about it in order to build sleep drive that’s the problem the giving into the little bit of rest that light sleep provides instead stay awake and notice the problem but don’t stress yourself out either have passive acceptance like oh I’m not falling into a deep sleep again and just remind yourself that in that moment of how the light sleep/rest is screwing you over and its better to be conscious.
This is what I’ve got to start implementing right now because I haven’t been able to this
week I’ve been sleeping in late because the rest feels good now but I’ve got to get serious about this like I was months ago and start taking my own advise and one very important thing also about this for me and anyone else is to not put an expectation on anything that you do to get outta the light sleep phase because when you attach an expectation to something you will be dissapointed kinda like a jinx so passive acceptance when implementing these strategies.I’m with you, something drastic has to be done. You mentioned staying awake in the bed to build the sleep drive. But if the case, why be in the bed at all? Why not stay in the living room, watch a tv show or something?
One things for certain- sleep restriction alone is not sufficient. Now, I’ve also tried stimulus control, but after yoyo-ing in and out of bed all night until it starts to turn light outside, it really makes no sense to me.
A while back someone mentioned getting out of bed when I find myself in the light sleep state. The thing is- when you fall in into that super light haze, it’s not like you’re lucid enough to pull yourself out of it. One thing that puzzles me with your approach of avoiding light sleep- based on sleep architecture, the body has to cycle thru light (non-REM) sleep before getting into deeper stages of sleep, even for normal sleepers. So did you mean- build sleep drive to shorten the light sleep cycle?
It doesn’t have to be in bed just don’t give into the light sleep that’s the idea staying up watching tv I guess would work I’m just remembering the time I successfully turned it around and I stayed in bed awake thinking about how I could still be awake but that was just how it went down that time.
I used to do the stimulus control but I got out of bed maybe once or twice max I would not continue doing it every 20 minutes if not asleep like they recommend so that’s how I just stayed in bed awake or conscious because I was like the SC isn’t working seemed like a waste of time and effort but when I stayed in bed there was no sleep the tired feeling was take hold the next day or days later.
You bring up a very true thing about how hard it is to get up and out of bed while being in the lucid sleep state it is, how I tackled this was going to bed with the intention that I would sleep but after about being in bed for maybe an hour or more I would consciously know that I haven’t reached that deep state and as a result would become a little annoyed and therefore more conscious and alert making easy to come out of the lucid/light sleep state.
The final thing about how the body and mind have to go through those sleep stages in
order to reach the deep sleep(Delta) that is true but the way I knew that I would sleep deeply that night was about 2 hours before bed I can barely keep my head up and just want to stop what I’m doing right then and there and crash so technically at that point I’m in the stage 1 sleep sitting on my couch probably border line stage 2 where as now I’m not getting that at all it takes a little effort to get even into stage 1 after being in bed for like an hour and that’s as good as it gets so it comes down to making yourself tired whatever or how much that takes because its simple if you can’t sleep get past stage 1 then you’re simply not tired enough and I don’t think it comes down to any set hours at night different bodies need a different amount of time awake and it may be an all nighter in bed thinking followed by getting up early and sitting around till noon before the body gives in to real sleep as crazy as that sounds that’s the kind of thing it took for me the last time around and I felt abnormal mentally,physically from the sleep dept for days in a row and it probably takes a lot longer
and more effort than you think to build that drive to overcome the light sleep stage.Makes total sense. I’ve never been able to pull an all-nighter. I tried a few times, but in the end, fatigue (not sleepiness) does me in. Especially fatigue in the eye area, and then I’m forced to close my eyes for a bit of relief, and the light sleep takes over.
It’s interesting what you shared though, as I recall the 1st time I had deep sleep after the insomnia was when I tried to stay awake in a hotel bed, and the next morning I just kinda crashed for a few hours.
The other thing, is that I have a hard time staying occupied past – say midnight. Prior to the insomnia, I was a bonafide night owl; staying up until 3am on weekends. No energy for that now. Lengthy reading bores me, and after a few hours of TV, I start to zone out (perhaps from all the sleep depth). At that point it’s hard to resist the temptation of jumping into bed.
I started working with a counselor 3 weeks ago, but it’s starting to feel like a waste of time and money. So, I may just ditch her, and experiment with new ways of increasing my level of tiredness before bed. She wants me to implement strict stimulus control, but like you, after two bouts of that, it doesn’t feel like it makes sense, and I want to tune into my intuition.
I’ve been implementing since oct 3rd a strict window of 2:00 am to 7:00 am and while I notice that I’m tired more than before still after being up for say 3 to 4 hours that tiredness is gone and I won’t say I’m wired but definitely not as tired as one would expect so all I can think
of now is to pull an all nighter because honestly that is how it happened last time by just
lying in bed conscious until my wake up time and now I’ve kept a journal of this since the
beginning of October so there is no doubt that even with this strict window the few hours
of light sleep is enough to stop from breaking the cycle of not being able to attain deep sleep so now the answer is so obvious and its an inconvenient one at that but like you said earlier its gonna take something drastic like prolonged wakefulness and that’s just the way it is despite what the sleep experts say about getting at least 5 hours of any quality a night now I know what has to be done, keep in mind I’m also not taking naps in the afternoon or melatonin since the start of October and I’m still not able to fall into a deep sleep that tells me that what I’m dealing with here is some serious deep conditioning that my brain has gotten into that is
hell bent on not allowing me to sleep the way I need to.You tried to stay awake in a hotel bed and fell into a deep sleep the next morning well that’s
a good clue and parallels with what I’m saying.Same here after midnight I’m bored and don’t want to stay up any longer or read,listen
to talk radio or watch movies I’m done and like you jump into bed and even though I’m
aware of what the light sleep is doing somehow I fall for it and wake up not having enough sleep drive.I have a counselor also that I spoke to at the very beginning about this problem and he told me that the reason this sleep issue is sticking around is due to the meaning and significance I’m giving it,so he said to change it by instead of worrying about my sleep and how much I’m gonna get to instead look at going to bed as resting I’m going to rest instead but the fact is at the time I called him I was already at a point of not sleeping at all at night nothing not even light sleep if you can imagine that so I was really worried going to the hospital I thought my life was in danger but shortly after that I began making progress and eventually began to sleep again but I don’t attribute this to anything he said I can say with confidence it was due to being so sleep deprived from the all nighters for like weeks that led to me regaining my ability to sleep again.
I have similar thoughts on the sleep studies I’ve taken; they’re not at all aligned with my reality. My sister not very long ago, had a night when she tried to sleep and experienced the light sleep stage that I described. The next day, she said…but that isn’t sleep. How is that sleep? She finally understood what I’ve been trying for so long to describe.
I wasn’t doing CBT for a while, and I recently restarted it. So I shifted from spending 8 …to 5 hours in bed. Now I get up like clock-work after 5 hours, but even this condensed schedule has not helped the light sleep lol. I agree that there must be an un-training of this bad sleep habit, and it’s so easy to rely on and accept it – saying that it’s better than getting no sleep at all- but is it?
Kindly disregard the last post. I wrote it like 2 days ago, but it was flagged for moderation so you’re only now seeing it
Logically, an all-nighter makes a ton of sense. The light sleep pattern has become so ingrained that it requires a solution that’s a bit more radical than just strict restriction (which is in itself is not unhelpful) but simply not enough. I don’t know how you can do it while being in bed though, as even if you can keep your eyes open, you may experience micro-sleeps that would defeat the whole exercise.
There’s a guy on YouTube that went for 72 hrs without sleep to do a hard sleep reset, and he said he slept like a baby after. But it was prior to quarantine, and he was able to hang out at a diner, so had bright lights, food and caffeine to keep him up. I won’t want to mess with caffeine though.
I spoke to one sleep therapist who said that I need to retrain the brain to sleep well again, but he had no real solution for how to accomplish that. But the same therapist believed that deep sleep only occurred earlier in the night, and I don’t believe that. I feel that deep sleep does occur at the earlier part of the sleep cycle, but that sleep cycle varies per our cardiac rhythm that’s different for each individual.
In short, I think we know our bodies better than anyone else. It’s true that insomnia persists due to the mental associations given to it, but I feel the light sleep issue stems more from learned behavior. So I’m more for finding a way to disrupt the pattern, but the brain is stubborn and wouldn’t readily give ground.
I’ve been doing this routine now for at least a couple of weeks and have noticed that my body has a much better chance of sleeping deeper now and almost did during one of the naps so it seems to be working and I’ve been staying up in bed if I feel like nothing is happening in the way of deep sleep this seems to be the correct path but even this takes time to execute.
Another important part of this is to get out of the same everyday pattern like for me wake up and instantly know that the same night has just repeated itself once again and here I am tired and frustrated and too weak and tired to get up and do anything and that is sleeping as well you’d think I’d be able to at least do that but no, so an important thing to do when pulling the all nighter routine is to get up at your required wake up time and do something different than what you usually do so to disassociate yourself from the routine and feeling of failing at sleep and being in that same place every morning I think this is important to get over this cycle.
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