[shonhin]

Thanks Jess, this is super helpful! It’s also great to hear that you’re seeing some progress. Can you share a bit more on your routine? When you say you’ve been doing it for a couple of weeks, are you referring to the all-nighter or the sleep window? Also, how many all nighters a week did you have before you saw some improvement?

Moreover, how do you determine if to do the all nighter or not? Most nights when I get into bed, I feel super fatigued but not sleepy. So my body is tired but my eyes are open and alert. Would you do an all-nighter in this instance?

Lastly, when you are doing the all-nighter, are you watching tv or doing some activity in bed, or just lying with your eyes open? And if so, do you not struggle to keep them open? Do you not get bored in bed?

[Jess84]

Well I’m seeing more success than I did but the problem is the morning after the all
nighter its hard to tell when I should lie down to take a 40 minute nap because even
though I say its an all nighter the truth is I’m still in bed for at least couple of hours at night basically awake but even that still is restful but not the same as getting 5 hours of stage 1, with the all nighter you know you’re tired the next morning but sometimes its hard to know when to sleep even then it amazes me at how bad this problem is but this is still important another part of the problem for me at least is the built up frustration of this persisting for so long and day after day of not being able to release that pent up frustration and I’m mentioning this because there has been a few times where I’ve raged about this and I’ve
been able to sleep and that’s how I’ve come to the conclusion that there has to be a stress
component to this as well and that has to be addressed in some way I just don’t know how.

I usually can tell most of the time that I’m just not tired at all and that going to bed is gonna be a total waste of time and whats the point so I end up staying up watching tv on the net and no I don’t struggle with my eyes closing if you’re at that point than you should be close
enough to sleeping I rarely get to that point.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by Jess84.
• This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by Jess84.
• This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by Jess84.

[shonhin]

If you nap earlier in the day, you’re less likely to feel alert at night, but you should let your body be the guide and nap only if you feel highly fatigued, tired or like you must lie down and close your eyes. I wouldn’t overthink it too much. So if you’re pulling all-nighters in bed, you may feel destroyed upon getting out of bed. That was me this morning; I dragged myself out of bed, and was so fatigued that I lay on my couch and drifted in-and-out of a light nap on my couch. Do you nap on your couch or in your bed?

The other thing that I’ve noticed, is that naps are a really good indicator of my sleep drive. When the insomnia started, my naps were deeper and better quality. Over time, as the light sleep pattern set in, my naps are also light. I’ve had naps where it feels like I’m just lying with my eyes closed, and can hear all the sounds in the street below. But the more destroyed I am, the better the naps seem. I don’t usually put any time restriction on my naps. I’m more concerned with when the nap occurs than the duration- and try to avoid naps after noon- if I can help it.

Regarding the light sleep, there are weeks where it feels like the sleep is akin to being awake, and nights where it feels like some form of light sleep is happening – with the mind cycling thru stories. For instance, last night I got into bed around 11, noticed I was having the light sleep about 2 hrs later. I decided I was going to remain in bed with my eyes open. I kept my eyes open for a while, but after about an hour I drifted into the light sleep again. I was quite destroyed when my alarm went off this morning. I took a nap, but the nap was also light. The nap would prob be deeper if it was a full all-nighter, but when in bed, I am not always able to keep the light sleep at bay.
(PS. I’ve tried pulling all-nighters outside the bedroom before, but have had very little success with those)

[Jess84]

You have really good grasp of the problem and are right about not setting times about when to do things something I’m guilty of and that’s where I get confused,so its good to hear you say not to overthink I will heed that advice and listen to my body,I feel wrecked also after pulling an all nighter and the mistake I make is sitting up in bed while I’m awake I believe getting up immediately is more beneficial and it sounds like you doing it right and as for napping I go back into my room because there is a blanket on my window to keep it dark inside which is better.

Everything you said in the second paragraph I identify with 100% especially how at the start of the insomnia you said the sleep drive was there and the naps were easier to pull off agree also now for me like you my naps are just like lying in bed with my eyes closed its unreal and that is why I’ve turns to the all nighter solution but just not doing it every single day when my sleep drive is low that is an indicator that hey maybe an all nighter followed by a nap mid day is something that I need and it sounds like you’re having some success also,I also found it
interesting that you said you don’t put a duration on the naps but make sure their beforenoon that makes sense as well because we’re so deeply conditioned with this insomnia that it even takes our bodies and minds longer than usual to shut off and give in to sleep.

Yes same thing here some times I feel as though I’m very sleep deprived and I should be after basically staying up all night but still don’t fall asleep during the nap in the afternoon maybe its the fact that subconsciously I’ve attached an expectation to everything I’m doing not sure but still this is how it went before I got better a lot of days of feeling terrible and a lot of frustrating nights but what I didn’t do is the thing that I’ve heard everyone saying to just accept it and do nothing don’t pay it attention,I can say the times I’ve gotten over this is when it was on my mind not obsessively but I knew that there is a problem and it needs to be fixed,one tip for if you feel you’re doing the correct things to build the sleep drive but not getting the desired results is to maybe find something to get you out of the morning environment for those couple hours before 12:00 pm for me because I’m not working right now I sometimes go to the library at 10:00 am until 12 and read about the insomnia for an hour or so to sort of be like this is the time of day to focus on this and afterwards I’m done with this subject and reading about the topic can bring some comfort early on in my struggle
I would leave the library and come 10 minutes from being home go for the nap and sleep soundly and I’m the last person that would go to the library wasn’t my thing until my brother suggested that I need a pattern change and I did it and still do just not as much but if so I make sure its after a night of being awake for the whole night.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by Jess84.
• This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by Jess84.

[Martin Reed]

Some things about sleep architecture that might be worthy of consideration here:

1. Unless our brainwaves are being measured, there’s no way to know for sure what stage of sleep we are in at any given moment
2. We have absolutely no control over sleep architecture
3. As we get older, we get less deep sleep and that is completely normal

People with insomnia typically (and understandably!) monitor for sleep a lot more than people without insomnia and this increased state of vigilance can lead to less consolidated sleep, less restorative sleep, and the feeling that no “deep sleep” is happening — whether or not that is actually true!

What we can say with confidence is that someone is not going to get nothing other than N1 sleep indefinitely — this stage of sleep typically makes up a very small proportion of our total sleep duration and is extremely light. If someone is woken from N1 sleep, they will often report being awake rather than asleep.

N2 sleep is the “next deepest” stage of sleep. People will typically report being asleep when woken from N2 sleep. N3 sleep, often referred to as “deep sleep” occurs mainly at the start of the night and usually makes up the biggest proportion of sleep in the initial sleep cycle. The body is usually done with N3 sleep within just a few hours. People who wake during N3 sleep often feel a sense of grogginess or sleep inertia.

Ultimately, the body knows what it is doing when it comes to sleep stages. It’s not unusual for people to get no N3 sleep (especially older adults) but this doesn’t mean that someone is destined for non-restorative sleep at that point because there is more to restorative sleep than N3 sleep alone!

So, in conclusion, without a polysomnographic study, there’s no way of knowing for sure what sleep stages we are in during the night. Even with such knowledge, there’s nothing we can do to control sleep architecture since the body takes care of that all by itself. Finally, it’s probably impossible to spend the entire night exclusively in N1 sleep for any period of time.

As has been mentioned in this discussion, it’s often the hyperarousal associated with monitoring for sleep that is the biggest obstacle to more restorative sleep.

I hope this helps!

—

If you are ready to stop struggling with insomnia you can enroll in the online insomnia coaching course right now! If you would prefer ongoing phone or video coaching calls as part of a powerful three month program that will help you reclaim your life from insomnia, consider applying for the Insomnia Mastery program.

The content of this post is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied.

[shonhin]

Appreciate your note Martín, but like Jess alluded to in an earlier communication, our intuition is a lot more reliable than medical studies and machines. I’m also in my 30s, so well in advance of the phase/age where deep sleep is notably reduced. I’d submit that restorative sleep is also not just a function of how tired one feels upon waking up; N3 sleep is the stage where your body heals, releases toxins and growth hormones, and cellular repair happens. And while it’s appears to be an uncharted area, more and more people are reporting not accessing deeper stages of sleep- so I hope at some point sleep specialists will set down their rigid views backed by science and see the validity in these reports. Once that happens, a broader segment of insomnia sufferers will be better supported.

Thanks for the useful tip as well Jess. I do try to get outside and expose myself to light and breathe fresh air in the early morning, especially when the cold weather does not deter from getting outdoors.

You mention being able to sleep soundly during the naps. That sounds awesome! Have the quality of your naps deepened since the all-nighter practice? On average, how many times a week do you nap? I only ever nap when I get out of bed earlier than planned to go sit on my couch, and when super exhausted. For the most part, I try to avoid naps, at least for now.

[Jess84]

While its true that my brain waves aren’t being measured I do know that I’m consciously aware all night while only mildly resting because I wouldn’t call it sleep as it has no beneficial effect at all in fact last night I experienced the worst migraine that was so bad that I felt like almost throwing up due to the pain of this and it is caused by not getting restorative sleep at night and waking unrested also a severe migraine like the one I experienced last night is an indicator and blood pressure changes I know this because it happened once before when I was sleep deprived and raced to the hospital and found out.

The all nighter strategy I think it should not be done purposely like you plan on doing it but should be happen naturally like last night I awoke after 3 hours of sleeping very lightly and got up went on the net for a couple of hours and then went back to bed so I had broken sleep schedule at night that is truly how it should be done but no matter what its important to wake at your normal wake up time no matter what I made the mistake of sleeping past that but I want to make it clear that night before the severe migraine I had set out to pull an all nighter by watching tv and doing light chores around the house and I made to 5:30 am and then crashed until like 9:00 am then woke up feeling like complete garbage with a migraine and probably higher than normal blood pressure so I think listening to the body is much more sensible than trying to force something I was just so desperate to make some head way but I was wrong severely depriving your body is dangerous.

Now I’m going to try to just let go and just accept what I am getting at the moment as bad as it is for me and maybe it will result in deeper sleep if not I’m gonna hook up with my
councellor as the last time we spoke my sleep got on tract whether it was from anything he said or not the desired result shortly afterwards occurred so it worth a shot and its not like anyone in the medical system is offering anything in terms of help all they seem to do is throw sleeping pills my way or the other day I called the crisis line during my migraine blood pressure incident and they told me its not a crisis and to not call back so I’m gonna hook up with my guy someone that’s knows my history and I’ve been successful with in the past.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by Jess84.
• This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by Jess84.

[shonhin]

I responded, but it says that my post is being moderated

[shonhin]

Same! And I’ve had specialists say to me in the past “well you may be experiencing MSR”, sleep state misconception, where you perceive being asleep as wakefulness, but I’ve quelled this theory by giving them real test data, then they’re befuddled, as they’re completely incapable of thinking outside of the box.

Totally understand the compulsion to orchestrate an all-nighter; you get to the point where you think ….enough is enough, and just want to end all the needless suffering, even if that requires something drastic. Well at least you made it to 5:30, in my case I only got to 2:00, and I crashed ..and not even from sleepiness but sheer exhaustion. And like you, I felt so terrible and incapacitated after, with all kinds of aches and pains.

OK, well it seems like you’ve given things quite a bit of thought. I’m thinking something similar, to maintain a sleep window and just accept the light sleep for a bit longer, and see what follows. Does your therapist advocate for you to use a strict sleep window? Mine doesn’t, but I’m thinking it may be helpful. Also, are you keeping a sleep diary?

[Jess84]

The whole you’re probably sleeping but think you’re awake is absurd if that were the case I would be waking up refreshed and not with a whole bunch of physical symptoms that are intense I know what its like to get stage 3 sleep you just know when that’s occurred because it changes everything so I don’t know why these experts keep saying this.

The all nighter approach while it made sense in theory ultimately it turned out to be wrong and I wouldn’t recommend it out of safety but now I’m just thinking that acceptance has got to be the way and I know that previously I doubted this strategy but when you think about it all the analyzing is causing nothing but internal tension so that alone could be acting as a barrier or prolonging sleep onset because when thinking last night about before calling my councellor I was getting a little bit of sleep and I know this because I recorded our sessions and in one of them I mention to him that I am sleeping a little so that is a clue as to what was happening before I started getting better and it was most likely from not caring much because I knew working with someone that understood these issues means I’m in good hands because the guy I get sessions with had insomnia and anxiety disorder but overcame it and is now certified as councellor/psychologist so not only does he have the head knowledge you’d get in schooling but has been there that’s important so maybe just the idea that knowing you have someone who completely understands the problem is as important at putting the mind at ease that’s all I can think because every time I’ve ever had sessions with him I’ve gotten better shortly after so I’m gonna be getting some more over the phone because I’m so fed up with all of this.

He doesn’t advocate a sleep window because he sees it as a symptom of another of
stress rather than it being the main problem and that the importance and significance you give it is what makes it stick like if your thoughts are oh my god I’m not gonna sleep tonight or how will I feel tomorrow that is whats making it stick and in order to change the outcome which is the sleeping problem you’d have to change the meaning and significance around sleep so instead of those negative thoughts replace them with different ones like if I don’t sleep deeply I will still get rest and its not a big deal so you’ve changed the meaning and significance around sleep but the problem is just because you tell yourself that doesn’t mean you believe it like you may get it intellectually but you have to own it meaning subconsciously which can take time you can believe something consciously but your subconscious hasn’t caught up yet so its a struggle.

Sorry for the long paragraphs I wrote this at late at night.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by Jess84.
• This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by Jess84.

[shonhin]

It may feel long, but I read thru it fairly quickly, so no worries. It seems like you no longer attribute the light sleep to insufficient sleep drive and not being tired enough?

Yes, what we’re experiencing is so puzzling. I can see how having a counselor that have direct experience with insomnia can be helpful. Did your counselor also experience the light sleep state? Which state is your counselor in?

Well I’m glad that you’re getting a bit of rest now, even if it’s not of the refreshing kind. I also like the concept of not accrediting too much importance to the sleep issue, but this may be easier in theory than practice. But I also need to work on this area as well. As most days, I feel so frustrated with the whole thing.

I’m not sure anymore how to tackle this thing. I’ve tried so many methods. But I do feel that I need to have an approach and stick to it for a bit. Just need to think about what that will be.

[Jess84]

Thanks for reading my comment and I never asked him if he experienced the stage 1
sleep all he said was that insomnia was a big part of his struggle with stress and anxiety in particular falling into a deep sleep so he most likely did as for what state he is in if you mean location he is in Canada and so am I but he counselled people all over the world through skype and zoom or by phone in person I discovered him along with lots of helpful info on a site calledanxietycentre but the site deals with everything from anxiety,insomnia all the way to addictions and the counsellors and therapists as a requirement have had to went through at least a serious entrenched anxiety disorder as well as being certified as a psychologist or therapist so when you go there you’re dealing with people that have went through the problems instead of simply just studying about them which is helpful.

I will admit that I’m doing better but still not getting that deep sleep I need to function,one thing I’ve been doing lately that seems to be helping for getting tired at night is to go out at around 5:00 pm that’s when it gets dark around here and I do my shopping or some errand and I’m gone for about 2 hours when I come back home its time for a shower not to hot but warm and then about shortly after that I begin feeling tired to where I feel like I want to turn off the tv and go to bed and its feels like I could really fall into a deep sleep but haven’t so far just came close but this seems like something to keep up with because at least I’m getting that tired feeling and also once in a while I think its good to have a sleep window of like 6 hours so the next day I’ll have that little bit of boost to help the sleep drive because before when sticking to the strict 5 hour window for months I discovered that it was making me more adrenalized than tired so actually getting more rest or light sleep helps burn off the excess adrenaline which results in feeling more tired so that’s why I’ve extended my sleep window.

I totally agree with you I’m at my wits end with this stupid problem totally lost as to what
todo or how to approach this,my final solution is gonna be talking to the counselor but
I’ve been putting it off because I think its so bad now that even he can’t do anything about it.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by Jess84.
• This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by Jess84.

[shonhin]

I responded a bit ago. I thought my post was held up as it’s being moderated, but it still hasn’t been posted. So this is a much shorter response.

First of all, good to hear you’re faring well. Things have been a bit tough, so no glowing reports to share. I used to do the warm shower thing a bit ago, as well as getting in a bit of exercise in the early evening. The warm shower did relax me a bit, but didn’t keep it up. It’s also gotten quite cold here, so would require a lot of willpower to remain active as the winter weather approaches.

Are you keeping a sleep dairy by chance? Also what’s your new sleep window? Perhaps you no longer have one. I tried the warm shower and went for a walk after reading your response, but got the same dismal response.

Another thing, do you ever experience a ton of mental chatter when sleeping? I didn’t at first, but with time, that’s one of the things that I noticed.

[Jess84]

First off so sorry to hear that you’re still struggling with this and I don’t do the warm shower habitually or anything like that just had some good results a few times but that doesn’t even mean that it had anything to do with that,the exercise I find that helps is stuff like walking doing chores very light because the fact is we’re struggling with sleep because our bodies are so stressed and charged up so the light exercise works to burn off stress hormones where as anything greater than that increases these stress hormones in the blood stream so its in our best interest to practice activities that promote relaxation that will calm the body down as a whole I do meditation and deep breathing.

One thing I’ve discovered is that human interaction is important during the day
probably because during this we’re distracted I find the days where I’m out and about the most are the days I do the best going to the library running errands for a few hours
seems to do the trick and that was literally the main thing that got me out of this pattern the last time the worst thing possible is to stay at home in the environment where everything
is going bad this only reinforces the negatives feelings and thought patterns associated
with not getting better.

I don’t keep a sleep diary because in my opinion what occurred the day before really has no bearing on what could happen in the coming days now don’t get me wrong at one time I
did but soon realized that all it was doing was reminding me that I haven’t slept in
weeks that’s not to say it can’t have a positive effect but I’m just speaking from my experience.

The mind chatter yes absolutely that is one of the barriers to getting sleep its most
always a result of too much stress hormones in the blood stream adrenaline causes all
the symptoms that’s why I practice deep relaxation and the mind chatter is reduced the
problem is that by not getting deep sleep at night that is stress on the body which
adds more adrenaline the next day so its a vicious cycle but the best advice I’d give to deal with it is to practice deep relaxation(meditation,deep breathing) and during the mind chatter
to remain as neutral and uninterested as possible to the chatter.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 1 months ago by Jess84.
• This reply was modified 4 years, 1 months ago by Jess84.

[shonhin]

Hi Jess, It’s sounds like your sleep has greatly improved, which gives me hope!;)

You’re so right about everything you said. All the things that the both of us have implemented in the past that never worked, including the all-nighters- it now makes load of sense.

I do get out a bit, not for any significant time though. A couple of months ago, I joined a local gym just to push me to leave the house. I go to the gym about 3-4 times a week, and recently I’ve tried to scale back the intensity and duration of my work outs. Keeping up with my gym sessions is probably not wise, but I used to model professionally- so it’s important for me to try to preserve myself physically thru all this, especially when you’re a female.

I also work remotely during the day, and have a ton of meetings, so being in a library or coffee shop where they require you to speak at low volumes may not work. Plus, I’m quite restless and get bored sitting in one place for more than 2 hours lol

I do a ton of errands during the day, and have also resumed taking short evening walks. I’m trying to get better at meditation- which I agree will help the mind chatter. I try deep breathing but it’s so hard to do. Do you have any videos or so that you recommend?

When things took a nose dive a week or so go, I resumed a sleep-dairy, as I felt that tracking my progress would instill a bit of hope. I may not keep this practice up though.

You seem quite young- do you mind me asking are you a college student? You speak of libraries a lot, and I dread libraries and the whole college atmosphere vibe.

Another question I have – when you talked about recovering in the past- was it from the same light sleep cycle? And how long had it persists in the past? Also, it’s so good to have met you on here, as until now – I felt I was the only one on this forum that was experiencing the light sleep thing. To many, it seemed like a foreign concept, so I always felt like I was in a world apart from everyone on here.

[Author]

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