[shonhin]

H Jess, I well understand your frustration and desire to engage a counselor for that additional support. It’s challenging to stick to a sleep schedule when you’re not getting sleep. At some point, the body is so weak and fatigued that you just do what you can to get a bit of relief.

I’m personally at the point where I refuse to spend a single dime on someone that’s going to make me fill out a sleep dairy, and give me tips for stimulus control and a sleep window. About 2 months ago, I saw this one sleep psychologist (Jack Edinger) in Colorado; recognized as one of the best in the sleep field; wrote tons of books and conducted a lot of research on sleep. I said to myself that if he’s unable to help me, then I’ll stop looking outside of myself for any support.

I no longer use a strict sleep window, as normal sleepers do not do that. This said, I do restrict my time in bed- say to 5.5-6.5 hours, and try to get up no later than a set time +/- 1 hour. I think this is sufficient for training my cardiac rhythm. However, all this sleep restriction has done absolutely nothing for building my sleep drive. So while the cardiac rhythm part is a no-brainer, the bit that’s most challenging is strengthening the sleep drive. Despite all the sleep restriction, it’s rather weak (and often feels non-existent). So, yes- do share the link to that book that you mentioned, as I am still trying to piece together what creates and sustains the light sleep.

You had mentioned seeing progress and experiencing deep sleep (a few weeks ago) in your previous note. How many days of deep sleep did you get?

[Jess84]

Yes the same here I don’t know what to do because the sleep drive just doesn’t improve much at all even though I practice the SR,but the name of the book is called Quiet your mind and get to sleep and the most important chapter that relates to whats happening with our problem is the one titled when thinking about sleep gets in the way of sleeping,this chapter mentions
something called paradoxical intention where instead of going to sleep with the intention of
going to sleep you go with the intention of not sleeping but to just lie there now I know this has been discussed earlier but the fact that in this book they are looking at it from such a different point of view is refreshing instead of the constant same tired advice and they go into a lot of different angles as to why this could still be persisting its the best stuff I’ve come by in any book so far.

• This reply was modified 3 years, 11 months ago by Jess84.

[shonhin]

Forgive the gap, but these have been really rough days on all fronts. Someone from my team was fired and all his work was transferred to me, which doesn’t help stress levels. So I’ve been pulling a lot of late hours.

Thanks for the info on the book. I’ll ensure to look it up. I’ve never heard and insights into our specific problem, so this should be interesting. I’m doing a bit better with getting up at a certain time each morning. Though most times, like this morning I find myself dozing on the couch after climbing out of bed. But I only dozed for like an hour, so didn’t feel terribly guilty. I’m hoping that the pattern and routine will have a positive impact.

Outside of using a sleep window, I honestly haven’t been trying any other techniques. It’s super cold now like I mentioned, so very little incentive to be outdoors. But I still run errands from time to time, and also do some light stretching in the mornings. Also try to stay on my feet as much as possible during the day so a bit less sedentary.

[shonhin]

Also amenable to chatting and trying to troubleshoot this together, if you ever felt like it could help. I know you’re seeing a counselor now, so this new person you’re seeing may help you to do just that. So it’s just an additional option, if it could be of value. I would so like to break this stupid cycle- just as much as I know you do.

[Jess84]

I agree I’d do or give anything to stop this and return to my original sleep routine but I’m at
a loss for what to do and the whole SR thing doesn’t make any sense because there are times when I get like an hour and a half of sleep and wake the next day in a state of being exhausted but still wide awake which is not very encouraging.

I just feel so lost as to what to do anymore with this problem and I know I can’t turn to the
medical system because they will just lie right to my face and tell me that taking sleeping pills with fix everything when it won’t,I’m already taking melatonin and drinking chamomile and valerian tea and still getting the same light sleep every night only to wake up tired but wired it makes zero sense it must be some deep conditioning going on really sad tbh this is taking so much time out of my life now.

I can agree that on some level maybe subconsciously I’m obsessing over this but when some thing like this has continued for well over a year how can one not at least have some kind of awareness about the problem when its causing me to have no energy and whole bunch of physical and mental symptoms as well to not even have an awareness about that is unrealistic our minds will not ignore things that affect us.

All I know is that before when I got better I at least woke up exhausted now I simply don’t it doesn’t make sense and you’d think SR would be working but I don’t notice anything.

• This reply was modified 3 years, 11 months ago by Jess84.

[shonhin]

Hi, It’s been a while since I’ve visited this site. I tried to log on 2 times in the New Year, but there was an issue with my account and I eventually grew frustrated and didn’t bother to do the whole password reset thing.

Anyway, hope your new year is off to a great start. I was surprised to see that you had turned to Ambien. Are you still using it? Did it help?

I have no new updates to share, which is a bit frustrating. I try not to think of sleep too much, if I can help it. But from time to time, I do give some thought as to what else I could do or try that I haven’t done a thousand times over.

[shonhin]

So did you transcend into another realm? In the previous communication, I meant to say Ambien. Was wondering how you were faring.

~S

[shonhin]

I did it again – I mean Melatonin. Haha, my foggy mind.

[shonhin]

Happy to see you’re off the forum as it means you must have improved. But can you not shared what helped you?

[Jess84]

No I’m not better at all same problem is happening I had a session with a councilor and he said that I need to stop making sleep an issue which when you have something that’s so impacting your life I don’t know how your supposed to just forget or not at least have an awareness of it.

Also he said that sleep drive is not important which I disagree and thinks that I just need to
go to bed and magically I’m gonna just fall into a deeper sleep simply from not making it an issue all the stuff he said I disagree with,sleep drive is required in order to become sleepy I know this because about a month ago I was at a friends place overnight and had to sleep on the couch and because it was a foreign place to me I ended going to sleep around 4:30 am and was awakened by 7:00 am I got up at that time and was tired enough to sleep for a nap for the next to two days the sleep drive was built up enough but that’s what it takes getting like 3 hours of broken sleep in order to have the drive to be in a position to even be sleepy and that’s not even guaranteed I’m gonna fall into a deep sleep fact is I have a serious problem that is beyond even the normal procedure of SR is having trouble correcting.

[shonhin]

So good to hear from you. I only come on here to check messages from you, as to be honest, you are the only person that understands what I’m experiencing.

Your counselor is right, in that you have to take baby steps in changing your mindset on sleep. It isn’t easy, but I feel it is a key component in healing on a mental level.

See, the issue is complex as it has a mental and physical component and both has to be addressed. On a physical level, like you- I’ve followed the sleep hygiene rules to where I can recite it with my eyes closed. While I no longer follow a strict schedule, I have a general sleep window that I try to adhere to. So I feel the cardiac rhythm is not hard to fix. The hardest element is rectifying the sleep drive. It’s super important, and i feel that once insomnia becomes chronic it’s challenging to tackle. As I feel like the sleep drive becomes weaker and weaker in time. But I assure you I will solve it! I’m determined to do so, and be my own healer.

Are you still taking the melatonin, valerian and chamomile? Have the helped a bit at least?

I went on a short trip with my family, and the motion of the car made me doze which I feel also helped my sleep the next night. But ofcourse I cannot be traveling in cars every day. There is a solution to what we are experiencing. So don’t lose hope!

[Jess84]

Thanks for the response nice to here from you as well I’ve stayed away for a while just out of
frustration with the whole problem and have learned a few things that yes no one should spend hours obsessing ruminating over their sleep as it only creates internal tension but at the same time every once in a while as a stress release I believe its important to let out what’s been building up inside over time whether it be coming onto this forum or talking to a therapist or whatever its no good to be so rigid with any of these so called rules because they get in the way of recovering.

The last 3 days I’ve been having some good success,what I’ve done lately is changed my sleep
window and when I take a nap and the length so first I stay up until 5:00 am then I wake at 8:30 am the next day so far I’ve been really tired the potential is there to sleep or come very close this something that I haven’t been able to do for months build real sleep drive but now it seems this is working and realistically I was only ever getting about 3 hours of sleep anyways each night so this sleep window makes sense and seems to be working well so far,as for the naps this I thought about and I’m not gonna make any special times for when I take one only that I must be sleepy enough and no longer than a half hour I can take it any time of the day or night this way everything is kept simple and there’s no over thinking.

I always take the melatonin small dosage I’m not drinking the passion flower tea because it has actually caused tension so there’s no point this all comes down to being tired enough to be sleepy in my opinion also staying busy getting movement throughout the day is helpful.

So you might want to give this a try if its possible obviously it not easy because I’ve had the problem of sleeping in an hour later after my alarm goes off for like 2 months before this its taking a hell of a time just to be able to get up when the alarm goes which I never had any problem with that before it could been just overall feeling defeated by repeating the same cycle over and over again.

Anyways nice hearing from you again and hope you had a nice time with your family and wish you best at getting better.

• This reply was modified 3 years, 8 months ago by Jess84.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 8 months ago by Jess84.

[shonhin]

Hi Jess, I’m so happy to hear of your progress. It really reinforces my belief that it’s all about finding ways to strengthen the sleep drive. I will definitely think of implementing a shorter sleep window.

I had a minor sugery yesterday that required anesthetic. I wasn’t sure how my body would react to it, but when they give it to me- I was completely knocked out. And afterwards when I went home, I had a short sleeping session. Made me think of all those times when you’re desperate for relief, and anesthesia was a hospital away, haha.

Anyway, as I’m recovering, I’m on bed rest for a short while, so tons of naps that I cannot control. But when things return to norm I will give your suggestion a try.

I don’t use melatonin, but I have been using ashwagsnda for a while, which helps to calm the body. It’s good to be off of here so as to not think of sleep, but from time to time I will aim to return and share positive updates.

Cheers

[Jess84]

A year ago I had severe anxiety over my sleep to the point of not sleeping at night for like 4
days maybe I was getting like an hour of very broken sleep eventually I got back to sleeping normally but then a family got sick and I had to take care of them and it got worse now though a year later I’m sleeping at night it takes over an hour but the sleep is so shallow that when I wake up I am fatigued all day have no energy yet never ever seem to be sleepy just everyday is a repeat of the last.

I have a 6 hour sleep window but its like all it does is provide the same results every night the
sleep drive never improves at all its so strange there has even been many times where I’ve literally done an all nighter only for the next day to arrive and not be at all sleepy how could
this be honestly it doesn’t add sure I’m probably obsessing on this but how is someone not
supposed to at least have an acute awareness that there sleep is not restoring and you’re constantly fatigued because I’ve had a therapist tell me I need stop thinking about this that’s
making it stick but I would describe it as an awareness that is with me all day.

I’ve tried to not make this an issue my sleep but after not seeing any results for like weeks its impossible not to think about it so the question is what would be considered not making an
issue out of it because I feel I’ve done everything possible to not make it an issue yet it persists.

[Martin Reed]

Hello Jess. I’ve moved your last post into this thread that you started last year about stage 1 sleep. As you suggested, it’s entirely possible that your heightened awareness, monitoring, and focus on sleep are contributing to sleep difficulties. It might be difficult to move toward improved sleep for as long as you hold onto the idea that you are only getting stage 1 sleep and continue to focus so much attention on sleep.

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