[turtlestamp]

@anmareta thanks so much for the feedback. @Manfred I can relate so much to your post.

I had a difficult night, and I chalk it all up to anxiety, what happened was after a poor night (just about no sleep) on Saturday (that I handled well though though using CBTi techniques and mindfulness), Sunday was full of anxiety about the nights sleep that accelerated throughout the day. I went to bed and all I could feel was the anxiousness (I’m sure coupled with the regular effects of no/little sleep), as much as I tried I’d drift out for a few minutes and then wake up with tightness in the chest and a wakeful feeling. After a few hours I gave in and took medicine.

I feel all the techniques I’ve learned go out the window on the after no sleep as the day goes on. I know I need to conquer this as the next step of my journey.

[Manfred]

Yes, it often feels as all the “learning” is lost when the anxious mind takes over.

The question is: what is the best way to “manage” or “eradicate” (better) this anxiety. Since I consider it as a phobia, exposure should be the way to go. But what is the real exposure? Hard sleep restriction?

[turtlestamp]

@Manfred you put it so well re: “learning is lost” i.e. it feels like you have taken a huge step back.

If I step back now that I got some sleep (forcefully : – ), I believe the anxiety is in fact two fold:
1) I can remember back to when I had sleepless nights prior to “insomnia” (e.g. staying up doing something fun, work, …), you do feel a bit restless and heart racing too from what I recall ? It’s just a symptom of lack of sleep ? Of course in your mind though you’re not at all thinking it’s a problem.
2) The fear that if I don’t sleep again tonight tomorrow will be terrible (this of course is the learnt fear/feeling from insomnia).

So given 1) is a natural response, add the anxiety from 2) I think this is why it’s very difficult to battle.

You could be right though, “stay awake” even if it’s the 2nd day without sleep until you feel tired enough and anxiety subsides.

[Manfred]

The following article goes to the heart of the “fear of sleepnesless”. Lois Maharg wrote a whole book about insomnia. Google the article “Putting the Fear of Sleeplessness to Rest”.

We need to teach our brain that being awake is not a real threat (it is a perceived threat). We need to teach it that sleeplesness is not dangerous, only uncomfortable. We don’t die of insomnia. The brain does not learn throught “knowing” (alone), we need to show it. I am thinking of the best way to do it.

[turtlestamp]

@Manfred, great article, very much hit home and gets to the root of the issue, it all comes back to the fear of not sleeping; Maybe I’ve improved, and I’m no longer scared of a single restless night, but I am clearly very scared of two, implying the fear is still there and that’s what needs to be tackled.

Is the book you are referring too:
“The Savvy Insomniac: A Personal Journey through Science to Better Sleep”

Have you read it, any opinions / thoughts ?

I do think at the end of the day, ACTi, DARE, are all variants on the same thing i.e. facing the fear and not hiding/running away from it.

[anmareta]

@manfred and @turtlestamp great points! I have been battling insomnia for 2 years and recently I am learning in the last two weeks that battling is the thing that is keeping me awake and anxious day and night as you guys said. I actually just need to surrender like that article you mentioned. Battling keeps the fight or flight response active which keeps me awake, so once I accept a sleepless night or a couple or 3, the discomfort that comes with it, the struggle of the next day, then the fight or flight will calm down. I have managed to be calm after 2 consecutive nights of 2 o1 hours of sleep. In the beginning, this was impossible for me, but I am seeing that with time it gets better.
I am just starting to learn this and is easier said than done, but until now, I get that I just need to let go. It will be fine if I do not sleep, it will be uncomfortable, YES! but it will be ok. I have been ok battling it, I will be ok not battling it.
The sleep school app I mentioned to you uses this ACT perspective in a more practical way, not just theoretical on how to show the body that is safe as well as CBT-i by doing relaxing things at night and enjoying them instead of being focus on the fight. The app has some awesome meditations that I can use during the evening that guide me through an anxiety attack and through the struggles of the day. The meditation is not to fall asleep on the contrary is to embrace being awake and paradoxically sleep comes. However, I really needed to embrace the mentality that I am not doing the meditation to sleep, but to really embrace being awake and being ok with it. Somehow then the body calms down with the relaxing activities and starts to see being awake as safe and not a threat anymore. It’s a bit complex, but hope you get a bit of what I am saying. Where I am guided to let go instead of fighting it, avoiding it, or getting rid of it. I noticed that, yes, I suffer the next day, but I can drop the secondary suffering, which is the fighting and judgement I add to it.
This attitude has helped me to feel less anxious during the day and sleep or no sleep becomes less important.

[turtlestamp]

Thanks a ton @anmareta. I feel we’re on the same page and know what to do here 🙂 It’s just a question of implementation at this point. It’s always so much more difficult day after a bad sleep, or in your case, two days 🙂 (which is awesome btw!)

btw at least for me “bad sleep” usually implies a nill-night, or very broken. If I get 3 hours straight I’m usually good.

I’ve seen the sleep school app before but didn’t purchase anything, do you think the guided meditations are worthwhile ?

• This reply was modified 3 years, 8 months ago by turtlestamp.

[Manfred]

@Turtlestamp – yes, that is the name of the book. The book covers the whole topic of insomnia. The part on CBT-I she mentions in the article is the most interesting part.

I know hat accepting, not battling is the way to go. But after all those years, I wonder if my brain will “ever learn” or listen to me 🙂 Not sleeping feels like an “existential threat”, and so of course you must get anxious. But knowing this doesn’t really help me. I did medidation, tried ACT with various success, but nothing got under my fear.

[anmareta]

Yeah, I feel like I am getting on the right track as well and it’s just practice and give time and patience to myself.

@manfred
I have had panic attacks and anxiety for quite some months when I started experiencing insomnia. So at the beginning I got into medication and therapy for anxiety and panic disorder. There I learn to build a friendly relationship with fear. It was intense therapy. I had it like 3 times a week for a couple of months, but it help me to feel OK with feeling fear. It’s really uncomfortable and it feels like I will die, but as the panic attack passes I realized I am alive. I had to do a lot exposofe exercises until eventually I feel more like ok here comes the panic attack. I have them less now as my body does not fight them anymore.
So it has been a journey for me, but I would never thought I would say this, it taught me a lot so in a way I can say thank you to it. If my therapist saw me writing this post, she would be speechless, I remeber coming to her office crying every time. It’s a painful process but I am glad I am not giving up because I am still learning a lot from it.
When the period was really heavy for me before anxiety disorder therapy I had a lot of suicidal ideation, so I am really glad I did not give up and it exercise my patience. Seeing that not all days are the same and just patience with the process as is not a quick fix for me.

[Manfred]

@anmareta
Glad to hear that you are doing better. You are on the right track, go on.

Anxiety is a liar. We need to learn to accept it. Resisting is what keeps us stuck. But as I said, knowing is one thing…

The book “At last a life” and the complementary one “At last a life and beyond” by Paul David summarize it perfectly, also the DARE approach is very good.

What do u do exactly right now with ur insomnia? CBT-I? ACT? Sleep restriction with stimulus control (getting out of bed)? Or “nothing”?

[anmareta]

Thanks for the support Manfred! 🙂 Yeah in theory is one thing, but practice is another and that is taking time for me.
At the moment, I am doing both ACT and CBT-i. I did the free online course and do both the sleep restriction, stimulus control.
Sleep restriction, I see it like, a way to show my body it can still do things with little sleep. Sometimes, I sleep two hours or one and start my day, ITS SUPER HARD, but reading youtube videos, this forum, hearing ppl sharing the story keeps me motivated.
The simulus control helps me to show my body to relax and find a relaxing activity to enjoy the waking time, not to relax to sleep, but to enjoy the waking time. Is like applying ACT to CBT-i in a weird way.

@Turtlestamp the meditations on the app, do help me. Because sometimes, I find it hard to bring myself to the present and show myself I am safe, so they are really good in that. There is a trial period on it, so I was able to try it for freee and I kept it because it works for me.

[Manfred]

@anmareta – thanks a lot.

I think that ur sleep window is 6,5 hours, isn’t it? Have ever worked with a shorter one? I have reports here who started with 4 hours althouth Martin recommends not going under 5,5 hours.
In the article I mentioned, Lois Maharg started with 4h45m.

Btw, didn’t u say u are from Holland? Just asking because I am from Belgium – so we are some sort of neighbours or brothers in arms 🙂

[R.E.M]

I just thought i’d add a few things that helped me with sleep anxiety since we are on that topic. It’s not as much as it used to be, I used to get panic attacks before bed and heart palpitations before bed. I rarely have this anymore, even during consecutive bad nights. I guess that means my body is slowly improving.
– I used to get back in bed in the afternoon and relax/do some meditation so that getting into bed a night wouldn’t be this thing that I was leading up to as I’d already done it
– Continuing on with my day was a big one. I would go on walks everyday even if I felt tired, it made me feel like I could still have a good day
– Cold blast of water in shower before bed. I feel like this has dimmed my anxiety symptoms quite a bit and I hate cold water! (Might keep you awake but it works for me)
– Don’t be angry or try get rid of your anxiety. Our anxiety keeps us safe. I imagine mine as a little child who is just a bit deregulated now with everything going on. Try show it and yourself compassion.
– Before I go bed I like to write encouraging stuff to myself, either about sleep or in general.
– Meditation really changed my life. Not to sleep necessarily, but how to focus on one thing and calm down. I use the Calm app and do the daily calms, they have some nice life lessons.
– I also use the DARE app, I like the ‘S.O.S’ bit. He has some nice encouraging voice notes when you feel anxious, feel like giving up or have a setback…ect

@Manfred it’s so true, sleeplessness is just uncomfortable but not deadly. But anxiety reacts like it is and it feels so real when you’ve been swept away by your anxiety. Hopefully with practice, we’ll be able to make space between our thoughts and reaction.

[turtlestamp]

@R.E.M thank you so much for your contribution, I think those will be very useful. I’m also going to take meditation seriously now, as in, spending the time to get used to it,

[anmareta]

@ Manfred I started with a sleep window of 6 hours and it has worked fine for me. There are tough nights, but some nights I get my 6 hours! :D:D so I have decided to not decrease it. The acceptance of the sleepless nights has gotten better, so I prefer to leave it with 6. I think I also have learned to stay away from articles that freak out about ppl having less than 8 hours of sleep and also ppl that think like that and panic and then trigger my anxiety. I keep my mantra, my body gives me the sleep I need and is unique to every person.
Yeah!! I live in the Netherlands (North Brabant) hehehe Good to hear you live in Belgium. I am not Dutch though, but I like this country a lot!

@R.E.M Awesome tips!!!! Feel like printing them hehehe and sharing them with someone. I will refer them to you. I had the Calm app, but found other ones and well now I like the sleep school app, but is I think what works for each person. Just so happy there are soo many options.

[Author]

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