[Harvey]

Good Morning All,

I’m looking to find any suggestions/help for my poor sleep which has been going on 3/4 years now. During which I’ve tried so many different things, which some have worked short time, some haven’t worked at all. I’ll try and give as much information as possible about life style and my problem. I dont know what to do at the moment

My problem;
I go to bed around 10pm, normally feeling pretty tired, sometimes shattered. I generally fall asleep within 10 minutes, but without fail I wake up at 12am, and struggle to get back to sleep until around 3am. This happens every single night.

I go to bed relaxed, with no thoughts on my mind (I dont think). I’ve gone through varying stages with my thoughts when I wake up in the middle of the night, for years I just accepted it. Its pretty boring just laying there, but it never stressed me out I just thought I didn’t need as much sleep. It wasn’t effecting my work or getting up. Sometimes it really stresses me out because I cant sleep, sometimes it worries me, but both is once in a month sort of thing. Lately however, I’ve been struggling to wake which is a big problem for my business as I’m loosing work hours, and just starting to worry about long term health now.

When I wake during the night, sometimes I feel wide awake, sometimes I feel as if I’m not actually awake or asleep (its a strange feeling), one I almost feel myself laughing at myself like almost some sort of high. I then after a while begin to constantly rotate my ankle and make it click, click my fingers, click my hip my cocking my leg, and I cant seem to break out of the need to do this, especially the ankles!

I also toss and turn on the same spot, which I think warms my side of the bed up. I constantly rotate my pillow for a cold spot. I’m conscious of hitting the misses when turning so I always do it on the spot sort of thing. Sometimes our baby comes into our bed so this is another reason I toss and turn on the same spot, but just facing different directions. I’m not sure how long I lay there in each position, sometimes it feels like 5 seconds, but its sure its like 10mins or longer.

I have two things that normally work, but this is where the being “half awake, half asleep” comes into it as I normally cant be bothered to do either. So if I get up and run my feet under freezing cold water, it sometimes removes the irritation in the feet and allows me to sleep, last few nights this hasn’t worked though. and the one that always works but I don’t want to go to, is if I go downstairs and crank open the window fully open so it becomes freezing in the room with a constant breeze, I normally fall asleep without issue. but I want to sleep with my wife, I don’t want her to wake up without me there. So I dont do this often.

Our bedroom is dark, I have the window open a little and its about 18-20C in there. We have a new born as well so I cant have it fully open. She stirs around 5am which wakes me a little but I dont think is a problem,. IF, I could have a window fully open, I feel like there’s more air in the room and it helps me sleep. My perfect conditions would be sleeping outside with a big cover over me so just my head and feet are cold!

Stuff I’ve tired;
I’ve tried sleeping tablets, these just however made me feel groggy and annoyed because I still woke up the same time, but just twice as tired.

CBT oil, worked maybe for a week, then stopped. Dosage was just getting higher and higher and the expense wasn’t worth it for me.

Natural sleeping tablets, these worked for a whole 2 weeks, but then stopped working and the 12am wake up was happening again.

10kg weighted blanked, this is the latest attempt. Sometimes I feel it annoying because its heavy to roll over. but I’ve been having dreams recently which I think means I maybe in a deeper sleep? I’ve never had a dream the last couple of years! but yeah, I still wake at 12am.

Lifestyle;

So I run my own business, I work from home from a desk 5 days a week. 8am-6pm lately, but ideally it would be 6am-6pm if my body would let me. I gym 4 times a week on average during the week. I dont drink coffee or tea, or any warm drinks.

This has been another hotly debated area with the wife … so I used to have a red bull every day, the smaller can. I really, really like the taste and the good feeling afterwards, and immedaite alertness it gives me shorterm. I used to have this around 10am (I say used, I still do regular drink the stuff but read on…) … I tried 3 months without drinking redbull and it had zero effect on my sleep pattern. However during the day I just felt pev’ed that I couldn’t have my favourite drink. Could this be causing the issue? but if it is, why during the 3months didn’t it have an effect, and why at any point during this sleeping problem, if it was redbull … could I go downstairs and sleep? it doesn’t make sense to me.

I would also drink a Coke Zero in the after noon, but no fizzy drinks after 6pm. I do drink 2ltrs of water during the day. I used to drink half a bottle of wine in the evenings, but I’ve stopped this to see if it helps the sleeping, but it hasn’t. Again, another one of life’s luxury’s potentially taken away.

Now I really feel im sacrificing all the little nice things in life to sleep. My little pleasures like a can of redbull or a glass of wine in the evenings.

I don’t nap during the day apart from rare occasions, and I’ve never ever had any issues around getting to sleep during the day and staying asleep.

I hope people are still reading, maybe this post will cure a few people and help you sleep 🙂

I am getting fed up of this issue and dont really know where to go. Doctors is a no go at the moment with whats going on, and im running out of things to try. I either accept that my body only needs 5 hours sleep on average, or I keep looking for a solution. I’m a father of 3, I’m getting concerned about long term health problems due to a short period of sleep.

I appreciate anyones time they’ve taken to read this, and can maybe reassure me 5 hours isn’t so bad, or give me other tips to try.

[Chee2308]

Hello there,

In that long post, you havent mentioned what time do you wake up after falling asleep at 3am? I am thinking something along the line of a sleep chronotype thing, that you might be a night owl, i.e., you tend to sleep better with a later bedtime. Have you tried going to bed at midnight? You also haven’t mentioned how you feel during the day after your perceived poor sleep. Do you feel sleepy or keep struggling to stay awake throughout the day? Some people naturally only need 5 hours of sleep and normal people actually only sleep 6 hours instead of the usual eight, actually spending roughly an hour or so awake. Again I’m no expert, maybe Martin or Scott has a better answer for you. But in any case, I hope you find something that works for you in the long run.

[Harvey]

Hello,

Thank you for your reply and apologies for those areas missed. I set an alarm for 6am but often snooze my way until 8am. I’m very skilled at picking my phone up and hitting the snooze button almost on the first note of the alarm. If I didn’t set alarm I think my natural wake up time would be 10/11am.

I haven’t tried going to bed at midnight, might be worth a shot? Often on a Friday, the wife will go to bed early and I’ll end up playing Fifa until 2am, which then I’d go to bed and get straight to sleep, and she wakes me 9am the following morning. To which I feel fine throughout the day. I’ve gone upstairs at 10am with my eyes watering, being absolutely shattered, and still woken up at 12am confused how I’ve gone from being that tired to seemingly wide awake in the space of 2 hours

So for the best part of the 3/4 years I’ve come to accept it, and during the day I feel absolutely fine. but the last two months I’ve been feeling tired and it takes me a while to get going in the mornings.

I appreciate your reply, and thanks again.

[Chee2308]

So you are saying you sleep until 8am every morning then go to bed again at 10pm? That’s just 14 hours spent awake. Normal human beings need to be awake at least 16 hours to generate 8 hours of sleep every night. But most people sleep only 6 hours anyway so 18 hours of continuous wakefulness is more appropriate. Sleepiness is like hunger, it builds from not sleeping/eating. If you try to sleep after just 14 hours spent awake, your body might think you just want to nap, which is kinda like having snacks before your main meal. Then when you’ve taken your snacks, of course your hunger is reduced. Try going to bed at a time based on hours spent awake continuously, not what time it is. In your case, I think it would be appropriate to try 17-18 hours. You’ve just told me you stayed up until 2am on a Fri, after which you slept all the way to 9 am? Well that’s a hint there because if you wake at 8am and then stay awake until 2am, that’s 18 hours spent awake, most people would have a healthy sleep drive after being up this long. Experiment what works for you, try 16,17,18 hours. I hope you find this helps. Good luck!

[Martin Reed]

It sure sounds as though you’ve tried lots of different things in a bid to improve your sleep! However, I didn’t see any mention of cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia (CBT-I) techniques. Is that something you’ve heard of or tried?

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[Harvey]

Hello all,

I’ll be honest what Chee Hiung suggested has been working. I’ve been going to sleep at 12am and waking up at 8am, I’ve woken a couple of times during the night but always gone back to sleep pretty quickly. I’ve even been having dreams which I guess means I’m in a deeper sleep? but I feel more relaxed knowing I’ll fall to asleep quickly and won’t wake in an hours time

I feel a bit more tired during the morning, but I feel I’m getting a better quality of sleep, even though sometimes staying up until 12am is a struggle!

Martin, its been an on going battle for years now. I cant believe it could have been as simple as going to bed too early. I haven’t heard of CBT-I before, but I’ll have a look into it

[Chee2308]

Hello Harvey!
Great to hear you are sleeping better. I too discovered many things about sleep when I developed sleeping problems back in Aug. Now I considered myself completely recovered. What I now know about sleep is that it is just a biological process that inevitably happens after a person has stayed up long enough. And that’s all there is about sleep, really. Ahsolutely nothing else except just a biological process your body goes through. I found waking several times during the night is very common too! It is how you respond to them which makes falling back asleep easier or more difficult. Forget about the 8 hour sleep myth. No healthy person gets them, really, because nobody falls asleep for 8 continuous hours and then wakes up like someone flicked a switch inside their heads from asleep to wide awake. The human body just doesn’t work like that. It is governed by a myraid of hormones such as melatonin, cortisol etc which controls pretty much everything from sleepiness to hunger, mood etc. Because of the influence of hormones, there is a spectrum of sleepiness that everyone gets. Like I said, it is not a switch that gets flicked from sleepy to wide awake after you spent X hours sleeping. So inside every wakefulness there is always a bit of sleepiness and vice versa! Kinda like a yin-yang thing. So during sleep, there will be brief moments of wakefulness too. Sleepiness and wakefulness are two sides of the same coin. That’s why people can fall asleep at almost anytime, especially shift workers who need to work inconsistent hours. The duration of that sleep will depend on sleep drive, which then depends on, like I said, the amount of time spent awake. Nature gaves us this flexibility so we can forage for food depending on the season or to look out for danger guarding the community in coordinated shifts.

It is very common and normal to have deep sleep in the earlier part of the night when sleep drive is strong and drifting between lighter and
REM sleep towards the morning where wakefulness and dreams will get more pronounced. You may also get lots of morning wood in the early morning and that is very normal and healthy too! Once you have fallen asleep, your body completely takes over and you then go through all the stages of sleep in the same way your body goes through digestion after having your meals. Both processes cannot be consciously controlled. I would like to end this post in wishing you continued success in your journey of self-discovery about sleep although you may not discover anything new other than what you already are experiencing now, because sleep is really passive and no amount of effort, mental or physical, can alter it.

[Nadya_t]

Hello Harvey,

How did all this started in the beginning? During these past couple of years did you have normal sleep as well? Do you keep some sort of diary? Have you managed to completely forget about this issue and not think about it for longer period? I couldn’t do this, I feel bothered with this problem every time.

I’m not sleeping almost at all since October. It started from panic attack in the middle of the night and doctors are sure that this is post Covid effect cased by sensitivity of nervous system. I really hoped that I will be able to manage and control the situation in short time. But day by day drowsiness is making my life horrible. I don’t sleep, or even if I sleep I don’t remember that. My sleep window is from 10.00 to 12.30. Only in the start of the night I loose my consciousness (I mean probably I sleep, because I don’t feel how other members of family go to bed, switch everything off) then I wake up. And whole night my mind keeps talking, it keeps making plans, sometimes it goes with ridiculous unnecessary thoughts. I tried everything. Mindful breathing, yoga, calming music, many things. had 2 different therapies with various medicaments prescribed by neuropathologists.

What should be done to survive with this for longer? Did you notice any other physiological impacts of sleeping disorder? Morally, it is too hard for me. Sometimes I cry. But I am expecting to keep going even with this. I want to live normal life.

Within 3 months I noticed that some changes happening in the digestion. The most painful part are my eyes. They are itchy, dry, eyelids are heavy and always sleepy.

I wish you and all who are here to get back to normal sleeping habits!

[Harvey]

Morning All,

Chee, my sleep continues to improve. I’m also enjoying having time in the early evening to do a bit of DIY after work, then still have time to settle down and watch our TV episodes. Before it felt like I could only do one or the other!

Thank you for your post and help again. It doesn’t help my wife appears to have that switch you talked about, she’d go from 10pm out like a light, until 8am. But she’s staying up to midnight now and we’re both feeling fine with it.

Nadya,

I think it started the same time I started my own business, but I don’t know why because I’m very good at working out of the office and switching completely off from work. but thats the only time I can pin point when it started really.

Largely I grew to accept it and it didn’t bother me. It was only in the recent month or so it bothered me hence reaching out, but I think it could be added pressure due to work.

Occasionally I would panic whilst awake at night thinking about long term health issues, but honestly after just this short thread, I’m no longer worried! We can worry ourselves too easily, especially when half asleep.

Something else I used to cope with it, and I do for most things in life that stress me, try and smile and find the funny side to it, I mean, its funny isn’t it, how can we not sleep? the most basic of things! this helped me deal with it.

The 12pm bedtime has made such a difference, I occasionally wake but I don’t stay awake for long. Also I feel my weighted blanked helps me a lot, because it stops me from tossing and turning, due to the amount of effort! but then my blanket does weigh 10kg.

When I go to bed now, this may be weird but this helps me …. I do a full stretch, making myself as tall as possible whilst laid down, I then visualise myself sinking into the ground, whilst imaging like an old school computer trash can, just thoughts slowly being deleted, and this helps me sleep.

I hope you get better sleep soon

[Chee2308]

Hello Harvey!
Glad to hear you are continuing to improve. With regards to your wife, I can only say everyone is a bit different and that is why I encourage everyone to explore and experiment with their bedtimes to find what works for them. Some people might need 10 hours of sleep every night, apparently so with your wife, which is quite rare but most people get by with at least just 6. She must be a really good sleeper! In regards to your previous sleeping pattern, that’s called a biphasic sleeping pattern where you slept in 2 distinct phases. Nothing wrong with this sleeping pattern either, because if you try to calculate the actual amount of time spent sleeping (total time in bed minus time awake) before and now, it will be roughly the same, around 7 hours. You can’t shortchange your body with something as important as sleep because it knows and is keeping track of such things. You have simply conditioned your body to sleep that way by going to bed too early where sleep drive wasn’t as strong. What then resulted was a less restorative and fragmented sleep. Then when you awoke for 3 hours, you would have rebuilt that sleep drive again. Your body thinks you want it to sleep that way, because like I said, nature is flexible about sleep and your body may think you need to be awake at 12 – 3 am for some reason and that’s why it is behaving like that. By going to bed later after being awake longer, you are accumulating more sleep drive which then puts you into a deeper sleep, reconditions your body clock and strengthens your circadian rthym resulting in a new sleeping pattern. Going forward, I would encourage to keep your bedtimes as consistently as possible, within 30 minutes. If you need to stay up later for some reason, then keep your out of bed time the same if you want to stick to this sleep pattern. Do not sleep in and do not compensate for lost sleep, you might sleep less for one night but the effort will be worthwhile if you feel your current sleep pattern is worth keeping to.

Hello Nadya
I’m reading too many sleep efforts and all I can say they will ultimately fail because sleep doesn’t respond to any type of effort, physical or mental except being awake long enough. Try going to bed later, spend less time in bed and doing less! Yes, less is more when sleep is concerned. By doing more efforts targeted to get more sleep, the more elusive sleep becomes. That’s the paradox about sleep. People desperate for more sleep don’t get it. You get it when you don’t want it. Read “The Effortless Sleeping Method” by Sasha Stephens. Sleep is not something you need to do a ton of things to get. It is not like going into battle to fight an enemy or into an exam hall to pass an exam. If you continue the struggle with sleeplessness, the sleeplessness will persist! Do absolutely nothing and give up the struggle by not caring how you slept. Only then will great sleep start showing itself. Good luck!

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