[Daf]

What I really like about this site is that many of the regular commenters on here are not people who cannot sleep because they are stressed at work/ due to family life/ other illnesses.

These things may have kicked off the insomnia, like me (in my case it was an illness 2 and a half years back, which cleared up inside 2 months). But the insomnia remained.

Most of the regular commenters actually have an issue with sleep itself – or rather the fear of not being able to sleep and its effect on them the next day and even long term consequences.

This is key because when I used to tell folks about my insomnia, they would always say, “Oh, what are you stressed about… what stressful things are keeping your mind alert?”.   I generally don’t talk about it now, because people only look with horror at me when I tell them, I don’t have any fears other than the fear of insomnia itself and that I often have nights when I do not sleep at all. Their look of horror at this only makes me feel worse – hence I tend to not talk about it, other than to my wife and one or two very close friends.

On this site it is great that there are other some people like me. That’s what I like about it. And the discussions re ACT/Mindfulness v CBTi – have been great and Martin, unlike folks in our NHS in the UK, at least acknowledges the contribution of the good stuff from ACT/mindfulness.

I often see what I have and many on this site as a sort of phobia.

I read something very good about this at a site called SleepLikeTheDead.com  – OK, its a site where he promotes a load of sleep stuff, but his own story which you an find in the “About” tab is interesting. He talks about it as a phobia. Have a read and let me know back here what you think.

[Edgar]

Many have viewed insomnia,at least some kinds of it, as an OCD type of thing. But I guess it can be called a phobia , too. Boils down to the same , you have a few bad nights, you start thinking/focusing/fearing what the next night will bring, and the circle is complete. And learning to let go of that fear goes a long way to helping you recover, especially if you are young.

Later in life other factors come into play that physically affect sleep, the drop in melatonin levels, illneses, less activity, etc.

[Deb]

I agree it’s like a phobia. And the way phobias are treated are through exposure therapy. You expose yourself over and over to the feared thing until the fear loses its power and dissipates. You realize over time that it’s is nothing to be afraid of. That’s another reason I like ACT, because you basically just expose yourself over and over to the original fear of not falling asleep by going to bed without any props, pills or anything and look the devil straight in the eye. Then you realize that all it really was just a paper tiger and the fear goes away over time.

[delv-x]

I would agree that it can be learned and I am fairly sure I am in that boat. A few bad nights, some life/family stress, worry, genetics and here I am. I don’t know why I am struggling.

ACT and exposure is scary but it does make sense that after awhile it looses its power.  I did try it last night after waking up around 4am. I felt like I was ready to accept any sensation but the only sensation is not falling asleep. I think the ACT techniques takes a lot of practice and patience.

Although I slept a little longer last night I got about 4 hours. My eyes are red and feel itchy, brain feels zombie like. I feel irritable and burnt out. I just wish my brain could just realize there is no harm, it needs rest and a few more hours would do more good. I am waay past the 8 hours is what we need. If I can get 6 to 6.5 and stable I would be content.

 

 

[Deb]

I know that ACT is scary. I was actually scared to death to take the plunge and tried to contact Guy Meadow’s clinic for some coaching help. But they were not very accessible and helpful like Martin and his website. You have set up an appointment a couple weeks in advance and it costs about $400 for an initial two hour long distant session with their therapist. It seems that Guy Meadows is not doing the therapy anymore. During that two hours they basically just take an assessment, give you a plan, and then send you an email once a week which I’m guessing is just going over one step each week of the  5-week plan.  You can read about this in the book so I really didn’t need that.  Other than that, you’re left on your own unless you set up another 1 hour session for $200. I tried emailing them, asking if after the initial session I could contact them if I got stuck and needed some help or had some questions. They never responded so I’m assuming the answer is no. Also, they don’t have any kind of forum where you can talk to others who are trying to implement their plan. So I decided to go ahead and do this on my own.

I have really appreciated how accessible and responsive Martin has been. Also, the forum has been very, very helpful.

[delv-x]

I also did quickly check out his website. The price is steep especially for a distant session. I think GM only does media and corporate group sessions. I am also sure the first 2 hours is mostly the basics and then weekly emails. The app, book, website and almost every article regarding sleep school is the same thing. Tug of war, monsters, stop the potions and pills and rituals, stop trying to force sleep, accept and be mindful. I think his book has some good suggestions and I am sure many have benefitted but I would like to see the real effectiveness. He shows stats on the site but they are in-house so they could be skewed. For example they surveyed a group of clients 1-year after their one day workshop. There were improvements after a year but I would also assume that a good handful of people would generally feel better after a year anyway statistically speaking. Since you’ve read the book I don’t think there is any added value with any sessions.

What I am “feeling” is ACT to some extent is being sprinkled in by CBT-I providers anyway if they believe it will benefit the patient such as trying to continue to make plans, enjoy life and don’t let insomnia tie you down. I wouldn’t be surprised if eventually there are amendments to incorporate some ACT down the road if it is been shown to be an effective tool in the array of existing tools.

[Deb]

In the book you get the feeling that you will have access to their counselors. For example, Carlos calls Guy the day after a rough night. That’s what I was looking for because I could see how it could be difficult and would need to talk to someone talk to, to make sure you’re doing it right and get the needed encouragement to keep going. Like Martin does.

I think $400 is a lot to charge without much of an explanation of what you get for it. I emailed them asking if I could get some kind of brief preliminary interview so I could ask questions pertaining to what their program consisted of before plucking down 400 bucks. They said no. Also a couple times I asked  if they provided any ongoing support after the initial interview and they ignored me. Must have gotten tired of my questions.

[Daf]

I would save your money.

Great book by Meadows but don’t spend any more cash there.

You may recall I went on a day course they had in London, where I live. Waste of time.

Course price dropped to a half of what I paid for it, two days before course as they obviously had problems filling seats.

Course was with six other insomnia sufferers. The host of the course basically just went thought the book and all the hand outs were from the book.

No discussion between the participants was encouraged.

When I said I managed on about 4 hrs sleep, the host said she was surprised, which made me feel worse.

And while Guy Meadows and the ACT approach I think has much merit in it…. Mindfulness and ACT does make a lot of sense in incorporate in tackling insomnia using CBTi, remember that Guy’s doctorship was in something else. He is not a consultant in the NHS or anything.

I have a PHD (in economics) and could call myself a doctor too!

The reviews I have read online about their consultancy were poor – cancelled appointments, poor therapists.

And GM does rather resemble Tony Blair, which may put some off  🙂

Smart businessman though and his approach in the book is excellent.  But I’d just read the book and leave it at that.

[delv-x]

I would agree. I live in Canada anyway so the idea of going to the UK or spending a lot of $$ for remote support doesn’t make sense especially if it’s the exact same thing as the book.

One thing I am applying lately that is mentioned in the book is dealing with intrusive thoughts. When I recognize an intrusive thought is that I speak with it. “Hello (insert thought here)” and spend 10-30 seconds talking to it as if it were in person. “Sit down, what’s up? how have you been? I haven’t heard from you in a few hours”. It actually seems to work. I could be ruminating for 15 minutes and be unproductive but if I notice it and just talk out loud it seems to clear it up. So besides all the other tips and tricks, this one seems to help during the way. Not bulletproof but more effective than trying to change my thought or push it away.

Last night I heard a speaker/speech about someone who was fired from his job after 20-25 years and was in his 50’s and spoke about his negative thoughts “Who will hire me at my age, I am old”. He struggled for a few months and his thoughts were always nagging him. He then spoke about talking out loud and would talk out loud on the commuter train which people felt uncomfortable with lol but he says it helped him push those thoughts away.

 

[Deb]

Thanks, Daf. Glad I didn’t waste $400!

[Author]

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