[Paras]

Hi all-I have an important question regarding Sleep restriction and stimulus control.

Let’s say I only sleep 2 hours. My wake up time is 4:30am. According to this website, I should allot no less than 5.5 hours of total time in bed, which would make my bedtime 11pm. Let’s say I’m not sleepy at this time, do I try and go to sleep anyway or wait till I am sleepy? And when I try and sleep and can’t fall asleep within 30 min, do I apply stimulus control Procedures and get up out of bed or am I allowed to stay in bed for the 5.5 hours? If using stimulus control this means my time in bed could be much less than the allotted 5.5 hours

Any feedback is appreciated

Thanks,
Paras

[Jess84]

I have that same issue as well and have come to the conclusion that the 5 hour window is not
cutting it on building sleep drive for me so I’ve cut it down to 3 and a half or 4 hours and what actually is happening is that I’m getting tired but also you will begin to feel the symptoms and downright awful but what eventually happens is that you’ll begin to feel tired enough to sleep but it takes a few weeks being extremely fatigued and having symptoms go through the roof but I don’t think there is any danger as long as you’re getting the small amount of sleep you getting.

I’ve already gotten out of my insomnia issue already one time and did by literally accident by not getting any sleep at night like literally nothing for days and days in a row and my chest was so tight it felt like a heart issue but it wasn’t it was muscle tension causing the muscles to contract and while I felt like total crap eventually I became tired enough to fall into a deep sleep and it reset my internal clock after that I slept fully for 6 days in a row and was so happy that I was out of this struggle than on like the seventh day about an hour before I get up I get a phone call from the hospital that my dad who lives with me has lung cancer so needless to say that put my stress through the roof and put me right back in the same situation that I have been in now for like a year but I am now realizing that the whole no less than 5 hours
isn’t as important because all you’re doing by being in bed for 5 hours if you’re not sleeping
is being awake anyway in your bed you may as well be up doing something and maybe rest for a couple hours.

All lying in bed can do is give you some very light sleep and rest that in my case keeps me stuck and doesn’t build the sleep drive to get into a deep sleep and break the cycle, light sleep is counter productive to building sleep drive in my experience and plus staying awake longer without sleep will build that drive more quickly and is less likely to keep someone stuck because it the body will have no choice but to give in to sleep so that is the strategy I’m starting to implement.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by Jess84.

[Paras]

Thank you for your feedback.

Sorry to hear about for father. I truly wish that he gets cured of his disease and am praying for him.

During your 3.5-4 hour sleep window how much are you actually sleeping and how many times do you get up because you’re applying stimulus control?

I’m the same as you. First night, sleep window was 5 hours without stimulus control. Second night was still 5 hours and I applied stimulus control. I got up a few times out of bed because I wasn’t able to sleep and basically got zero sleep. Only my second night and it feels like hell going through the next day. How many days in total did it take for you to finally go to sleep?

Also when applying stimulus control because we can’t look at the clock I’m having trouble determining after how long I should get up when in bed and can’t sleep. After how long do you get up if you can’t sleep while in bed? How do you even determine the time if you’re not suppose to look at clock?

Looks like I don’t have a choice except to follow This as the sleep is bad either way.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by Paras.

[Jess84]

By the time I’m walking to my bed room to go to sleep its like 2:30 am and really I don’t feel like getting up at that point considering my alarm is set for 6:00 am I do like to be in my for some amount of time so no I wouldn’t say with that small of a window I would apply further SC but if I’m not sleeping in bed its better to just stay conscious instead of closing my eyes and just trying to sleep and this is good because at least I’ll wake up tired,during the the window I would say that I’m getting very light sleep which is not very beneficial however eventually sticking with this strategy you’ll sooner or later that during the time before bed you will get extremely tired to the point where you will fall into a deep sleep its just how long will that take and an important factor with this is the couple hours before your window you have to be winding down.

Honestly it took a long long time before I turned the corner even with doing things right and its because there are times when I’m so exhausted that I feel like when noon rolled around I need to take a short nap and this can be the way out some times because if your so tired that you actually fall into a deep sleep during these naps that is great as long as you immediately wake and get out of bed because once you’ve done that you’ve told your brain that hey I can fall into a deep sleep again and its that much easier to do it at night also I then started to feel really tired at night after I was having success with the short nap during the day the problem with it though is you have to figure out exactly how long it should be and I find no more than 40 minutes but that may even be too long and its important to do this when you literally can’t keep your head up when you’re at that point its a good sign because it shows you have sleep drive but like I said too long of a nap is counterproductive as well its only to be done when you’re extremely exhausted.

As far as how long do you wanna stay up with the SC I found that 30 minutes but I only got up like once because to keep getting up over and over again just didn’t seem like it washelpful but that was just me,when I couldn’t sleep I would just stay conscious in bed thinking about random things thus keeping me awake and ensuring I was exhausted the next day this I thought worked better the problem now with me is that I actually sleep but very lightly which
is not helpful because I can never get to deep sleep which I need because my body is thinking
the light sleep is helpful which it isn’t also I think just staying up later is better than the SC but
that’s just me.

How long has this been going on for you and do you have a problem falling asleep or wake too early also do you feel tired at any time during the day because that is super important so if you are that means that your efforts are working but if you aren’t it could be that the little bit of light sleep you are getting is actually just preventing sleep drive from building I think that’s what is happening with me.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by Jess84.

[Paras]

I have the same exact problem. The hours I spend in bed (without SC) I’m awake trying to sleep and towards the tail end of the night / early morning – I get very light sleep and then I am totally awake for the day. The light sleep is so light I sometimes know what I am dreaming or thinking.

Not getting into a deep sleep state is scary It’s like the brain has forgotten how to do this. I’ve had this for about 1 year now. I have trouble both falling asleep And waking up early. I get both tired and fatigued throughout day but am wired as soon as I hit the bed.

I’m thinking the same thing- the light sleep is coming in the way. That’s why I’m debating whether to do SC and avoid the light sleep and just get more exhausted if I can’t sleep.

I also understand how you can not do SC and just be consciously awake in bed although that may associate the bed with being awake.

Although I kinda agree that to keep doing SC every 30 mins and getting out of bed when the Sleep window is already short is crazy.

I guess just gotta keeping going at it and one day the exhaustedNess will lead to the deep state of sleep you eventually experienced.

I wish there was another easier way but looks like there isn’t. Meds don’t work for me either and are poison in the end anyway.

What a crazy disease and predicament to be in where you are unable to function normally both mentally and physically without deep sleep

[Jess84]

Sounds to me like the two of us are in the identical predicament here literally everything you’ve said is a match to me this has been going on for a year now also the good news though is that today I noticed that at about 12:00 pm when I usually do my nap it was very easy to get tired and I almost fell into a deep sleep within 10 minutes that has not happened to me in months and I made sure that the nap was no more than 30 minutes and I gotta say I feel as though there is real sleep drive now because as I said before the last time this was overcome I felt like how I feel right now and I got to this point by getting up at 6:00 am everyday the change I’ve made is that instead of getting in bed at 1:00 am I simply wait until 2 that is only an hour later but its making a huge difference also my naps in at noon are shorter and I don’t consume any sugar or caffeine whatsoever and now I have real sleep drive so I am starting to slowly turn the corner.

This last week especially my main focus is been building sleep debt through staying awakeand doing things that are enjoyable and that has ensured that I don’t get that light sleep that is counter productive, I haven’t been winding down before bed in the last few days just staying up doing activities and once 2:00 am rolls around I just go in the room and don’t get any of that light sleep only rest for the body so I wake up tired enough to fall into a deep sleep at noon, once I am to the point of being completely exhausted which hopefully is sometime and the next few days instead of doing these activities at night before bed I will wind down and that will be my opportunity to fall into a deep sleep at night and reset my internal clock and be done with this problem and that is how it got resolved last time so maybe this is something to consider its not easy by no means and could take a little while but I truly believe that what’s keeping us stuck at this point is the light sleep that serves no purpose whatsoever and its better to just embrace the wakefulness
and use it to do something in the process making yourself exhausted enough to sleep.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by Jess84.

[Jess84]

One last thing is you said its as if you’re brain has forgotten how to get deep sleep well I’d say that your brain hasn’t but it has gotten used to getting very light sleep and that is the problem and focus less on the rules and more strictly on becoming tired by any means because the truth is if you can’t sleep deeply its because you aren’t tired enough and it may seem like the window you’re observing should be enough but it obviously isn’t and you need less time in bed while at the same letting go completely.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by Jess84.

[Paras]

Any further luck in getting deeper sleep at night?

I tried keeping my sleep window to 4 hours without applying SC- from 12:30am to 4:30-am. What happens is that I get very light sleep and when I wake up at 4:30 I’m so tired I’ve been coming out of my bedroom and coming down but lying on my couch for the next few hours as my body is so exhausted… so complete failure last two days doing this. I’m gonna try again tonight.

How do you stay awake as soon as you wake up after only 4 hour sleep window? What do you do to keep yourself awake?

It’s crazy but our definition of tired is so distorted compared to A normal persons definition of tired. Wow our minds or nervous systems are that hyperaroused That night after night of only light sleep doesn’t make our bodies shut down. But since you said The 4 hour sleep window worked for you I’m keeping my hopes up…that if I could do the 4 hour window and stay awake, in a couple of days I’ll eventually pass out and reset the clock.

I talked to my psychologist about CBti and he said give it a try – it may or may not work. It may work if your Main issue is that your brain is associating wakefulness with the bed. It may not work if you have another underlying psychological / mental issue.

Have you tried meds at all? I’ve tried the ambien, and Lunesta with no luck so CBT-I is my only hope.

Also are you in school or go to work? If so how do you handle such things?

I’m currently looking for a job but am not successfully able to complete the process as my physically and mental capabilities are really low due to sleep exhaustion.

Physically I feel like my body is never relaxed as I’m only always trying to fight the fatigue. Mentally I feels like my cognitive functioning is low and my brain is fogged up- but wired at the same time- but can’t do too much of intellectual activities.

In a real bind here..let’s see what happens.

[Martin Reed]

I’m a bit late to this thread, but I appreciate you taking the time to ask such a great question, @Paras.

It can be helpful to think of the sleep window and stimulus control as two separate techniques that work well together but shouldn’t influence each other!

So, we create and observe a sleep window, no matter what — and we get out of bed when being in bed doesn’t feel good, no matter what.

As you pointed out, this can mean spending less time in bed than the duration of your sleep window — and that’s OK since you are still giving yourself the *opportunity* to get a minimum amount of sleep (I don’t recommend a sleep window of less than five-and-a-half hours) while also giving yourself an alternative to staying in bed when being in bed doesn’t feel good (something that can increase arousal and make falling asleep more difficult).

I hope this helps.

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