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Same here, Steve. I’m averaging 2-3 hours of sleep for about 4 days now and yesterday I started taking CBD (from hemp oil) to help me cope with the anxiety and depressive state of mind both resulting from such little sleep (energy level has been ok, don’t know how). Tough times…have to stay strong
Question for everyone:
Do you all have an idea of how long you stay awake in bed until you decide it’s time to get up and do SC?
I’ve noticed I can take sometimes 40 mins to up to an hour to get up, but I don’t realize it since notion of time can be pretty strange when we are in that state between asleep and awake.
I wonder if this can have a real impact in the overall effectiveness of CBT-I? I’m wondering if I should start getting up quicker when I’m no falling asleep or falling back asleep and if that would help..
(Deb, I went through a nice longish period where I didn’t have to do much SC anymore but I’m back to it pretty intensely now (got up 3 times last night). I WISH 2 weeks of only SC would solve this problem – maybe if I’m a little quicker to to SC it could make more of an impact?)
Deb and Padron,
It’s really nice to know you both can relate a bit to my experience. Deb, it’s a good thing that you’re trying something different, and I’m about to join you. Padron, it was particularly helpful to know you have also experienced depression as a side effect of SR because that has been a shock to me. I googled it a ton and never found depression as a side effect of SR and also never heard of anyone else commenting on it here. This depressive state of mind is a brand new experience to me and it has been scary because suicidal thoughts crossed my mind a few times and I have quite a bubbly personality, I’m joyful, have been through a lot in my life and never had suicidal thoughts before. I have also been getting less sleep now for 10 weeks than I used to with insomnia, so things definitely need to change. Good thing I practice mindfulness because I am able to let those thoughts flow without taking them so seriously – regardless, it’s still very unpleasant and a little scary.
I kept thinking I was the odd one out for a long time until I found this forum. The sleep specialists make it sound like it works wonders for everyone and I find that to be harmful to the ones for whom CBT-I doesn’t work as well (or works slower). Also, I don’t like that the sleep specialists/research are “turning their head” to the cases that don’t work as well. I think there is a good 20% of us out there? I think with only a little tweaking in the strictness of the program, it could work better for the remaining of us.
I think it’s going to take some time to un-do the “bad stuff” learned from CBTI (mentioned on my other post) but I’m going to start working on them soon.
Yeah guys, I see you are all struggling a bit and so am I. I know most of the time I list the positives here, but it’s time for me to look at the negatives and make some modifications on my own as I don’t really feel “listened to” by the CBT-I coaches I have been working with, including Martin (sorry, don’t mean to be offensive in any way but it is the truth). It’s been 3 months that I get an average of 4 to 5 hours of sleep because of a strict SW and I’m feeling the effects of it pretty bad. I haven’t mentioned it because I don’t want to sound negative here but truth is that in the last month I developed intense anxiety, lack of concentration, over eating, dull/depressive state of mind, lack of motivation, and forgetfulness ( of course I still experience positive things, but the negatives have been more frequent). I have never really struggled with any of these before so to me it’s clear that it is related to getting way too little sleep due to a strict SE. I don’t think this is irreversible or that it will have a long-term impact on my health so I’m not necessarily freaking out but my quality of life has decreased quite a lot and I’m just being patient with it at the moment.
I went back to a strict SW since I started the paid course with Martin but I’m entering the 4th week with him and I think it’s finally time to let go of the strictness of CBT-I once and for all. There have been positive signs but also way too many negatives and I think I need to do what intuitively feels the best for me.
I’m going to list the negatives today, so bear with me:
– I used to be able to fall asleep just fine at the first signs of sleepiness, but because of the strictness of the SW it seems that I pretty much conditioned my body not to fall asleep unless I’m beyond exhausted. Not cool.
– It feels as if I don’t follow exactly the same routine every night, I can’t fall asleep – what the heck? That’s annoying. So I can never have a different evening now, and I don’t fall asleep? Doesn’t feel right to me.
– A short SW gives me sleep anxiety, PERIOD. How can I relax giving myself only 6 hours to sleep if I know the chances of having to do SC or not falling asleep right away are pretty high? A short SW has not worked for me and I honestly think it’s fine to have a longer SW as long as we’re still implementing SC and all the other techniques
– Sleep became way too technical for me and it doesn’t feel enjoyable anymore since I have to follow so many little rules and have such a strict routine. Also, I resent the fact that I can’t ever be in my bed unless I’m passed out. My bed used to be this friendly, enjoyable, relaxing venue and now it feels like a forbidden land – must NOT be on it unless asleep. I don’t know that I will be back to hanging out in my bed as much as before because I can see the logic behind not spending time in bed awake, but maybe a relaxing activity here and there? Read a bit, watch an asmr video, lie down only to relax sometimes?
Barely 2 good weeks of sleep in 10 weeks is just not ok. Strict CBT-I is not paying off and I’m over its strictness.
So sorry for the rant everyone. I think CBT is really awesome but for the ones whose improvement is slower the strictness of it needs to be modified. Hope everyone gets better with time here! All the best!!!
Steve, interesting – when I fall asleep and wake up just 10/15 mins into it, a strange conditioned arousal usually takes over and right there I know it will be a rough beginning of the night. The crazy part is that I actually have memories of the traumatic period I went through back in 2017 and experiencing my very first “insomniac nights” and that’s exactly what would happen. I would go to bed nervous (not because of sleep but because of personal stress), fall asleep and wake up shortly after in a violent jerk and feeling absolute panic from the stress of the day. It’s insane how years later, after all the stress has been removed, the body still remembers this and re-creates the experience. Does anyone else relates to this? It feels as if these processes have been learned by the brain and are deeply ingrained in there – no wonder it takes so long to un-do them. Yikes..
I was introduced to CBTI by Donn Posner (professor at Stanford) through his video on youtube. I got in touch with him and he referred me to a sleep specialist here in CO! I worked with her for 7 weeks but wasn’t happy with it.
Yes, I miss just being out for the night as well. I remember before insomnia, on weekends I would sometimes sleep 10 hours straight with no problem at all. Ah, the good ol’ days..
Hi guys,
Deb, thank you for explaining about ACT. I’ve been practicing mindfulness since 2014 so I can definitely relate. Someone here mentioned reading The Power of Now – that is the book of my life! I’m always listening to Eckhart Tolle – talk about letting go of negativity! Interestingly though, when it comes to my insomnia I’m not always able to practice it, particularly if it’s a really rough night! I’ve been working “harder” to observe feelings and thoughts about it but sometimes frustration does take over.
Steve, Martin said he can’t comment on my progress since all those weeks of CBT-I was with another coach. I’m on the 3rd week of his course but he did say that a linear SE isn’t likely and that is is normal for it to go up and down. I like what Mac said earlier: it’s about how we are doing generally than looking only at “I’m still having bad nights of sleep” as hard as it may be. One thing I really appreciate since starting CBT-I for example is not having mental fatigue anymore, it used to be horrible and intense. These days I’ll be tired and sleepy sure, but mental fatigue is gone (red heavy eyes, head would feel like it was heavy and swollen, extreme tiredness but not sleepy). Another new thing I’ve been appreciating is “consciousness kind of distant” or a natural slow down of mental activity as I rest my head on the pillow – I used to be so alert even when I was collapsing with exhaustion and these days I can sense my mind disconnecting on its own even if I’m not thaaaat sleepy. So cool 🙂
Although there are these 2 positives, my 9th week has been a nightmare. Taking several hours to fall asleep, waking up in the middle of the night and not being able to fall back asleep, and lots of SC. Oh, and 2 nights ago I never fell asleep – got very very light sleep from 3:30 am to 5 am. Worst part was that I was so tired I couldn’t even enjoy the evening watching a movie or show, which is how I cope with these bad nights. I tried watching Friends but my eyes would not stay open, and I also would NOT fall asleep. True nightmare. I had gotten used to not having to do SC anymore so I was resistant and annoyed to have to do it again.
I miss being a normal sleeper so badly. Never knew how good I had it.I hope in 6 months we are all going to be reporting wonders here!
Hey everyone!
Nice to read how you’re all doing – seems like many of us are up and down a bit. Deb, what is ACT? Btw, I noticed a few people referring to me as “he” and just wanted to clear that up and let you all know I’m a woman (33) Ha! 🙂
So, my sleep hasn’t been that great for a few consecutive days now. My SE fell back again from 83% on week 8 to 71% on week 9. I even had 2 nights of only 2.5 hours of sleep, which hadn’t happened in quite a while. I freaked out about it a bit and asked Martin if it’s normal to be on 9 weeks of CBT-I and to have never reached 85% of SE. I’m focusing mostly on staying neutral about it: no frustration, no complaining, no talking about it with people except here, no negativity. There’s definitely some of all that internally but I work on not letting it take over and I think it also helps that I haven’t been feeling tired and fatigued during the day – I have no idea how.
Last night I wanted to enjoy my evening without having to freaking worry much about a sleep routine so after a full day of activities around 8 pm I decided to indulge in a big bowl of salty popcorn and some white chocolate – hmmm. Haha! I did all that feeling totally relaxed and told myself I’d just go to sleep later since I thought I wouldn’t get sleepy around the start of my SW. To my surprise, my internal clock was on it – by 10:00 pm I started getting sleepy (I usually go to bed around 10:40pm and have been falling asleep within 5-10 mins pretty consistently) . So by 10:40pm I go to bed feeling very sleepy and relaxed thinking I was going to fall asleep fast since my internal clock kicked in so well and all the cues for sleep were present. I think I did fall asleep for a quick 5-10 mins and came back to alertness. When I came back, what do ya know – conditioned arousal, bam! Although mentally I wasn’t reacting, my body responded on its own with a racing heart and butterflies in my stomach. Result: I zig-zagged between bed and couch about 2 or 3 times from 11pm until 1 am and I think I ended up falling asleep around 1 am and woke up at 5am which is when my SW ends. I mean, I felt like throwing something out the window as I was going through this (I even pictured it) but remembered to relax into it. And that’s it for me. No idea what will be coming this week, but have to say this has been quite a journey and I’m not sure why my body/mind isn’t learning this faster. Having patience is all I can do now because I don’t see myself giving up on CBT-I at all…
Hi Edgar,
I’m not able to offer much help in answering your first question although I have experienced something similar a few times. When our sleep system is out of whack it seems that anything is possible when it comes to a bad night of sleep – being awake all night, sleeping only a few hours, or like in your case and I’m sure for a lot of us, naturally waking up at the same damn time regardless of what time we went to bed. My theory is that the subconscious, which is the system that takes care of the thousands of little and big things involved in sleep is in action and makes this happen. Why? Because it’s off, it’s out of whack, it’s simply not working properly, it lost its ability to work efficiently due to some original source that messed it up: acute stress, anxiety, trauma, illness, pregnancy, etc.
As for your second post: I can say with 99.99% confidence that all of us who have insomnia have experienced or experience tension going to bed – it’s how insomnia develops in the first place! This is called conditioned arousal and a huge part of CBT-I is to work exactly on that: removing this learned conditioned arousal, which let me tell ya – takes quite some time and work, but slowly you start seeing improvement.
Conditioned arousal happens because our subconscious learns to associate bed with stress/anxiety due to a period of bad nights of sleep we may have had during a time of high stress (or for biological reasons, like pregnancy). Once that association is made by the subconscious, we start to feel stress and anxiety when we go to bed, which then makes it hard for us to fall asleep and stay asleep – you can see how this becomes a vicious cycle and perpetuates itself. My advice to you is: reach out to Martin. Try out his free online course. A lot of us here have learned and are learning that our attitude towards sleep actually plays a huge role in how we sleep and there is one specific thread where we are all supporting one another to not beat ourselves up about this and reminding each other to stay at least neutral about our insomnia (to be positive is asking a little too much, right?)
I hear you about CBT reminding you of “trying to sleep”. I felt EXACTLY the same way when I started, especially because I had already worked on the tension part of my insomnia on my own and had learned tp “relax into it”. So when I started CBT-I the tension came back and even stronger because like you said, it felt to me like I was actively trying to sleep by following the techniques of CBT-I. It did take some weeks but eventually this new tension faded and for the past few weeks I generally fall asleep within 5 or 10 minutes since now I feel relaxed in bed. The techniques involved in CBT-I are designed to get rid of all the little things that perpetuate insomnia although at first it can actually enhance them – you just have to give time, have patience, consistency, and commitment. Advice: reach out to Martin. take his free online course. You don’t have anything to loose by doing so, so why not?
Hey everyone! Deb mentioned copying and pasting my post from another thread over here to help the ones who might be having a tough time. I think it’s possible I might have had the roughest and longest start with CBTI we’ve seen around here, so maybe for the ones who don’t see improvements for a long time, my story can offer some hope (nd if not, please introduce yourself, would love to know of someone else who had a rough start too, ha!).
I’m nowhere near healed from insomnia but I can tell there’s been some improvements that I’ve been excited about and I’ll say this: a good attitude about setbacks seems to be playing a fundamental role in getting better, and Deb, thank you again for making a strong point on this before.
Here it goes:
It does help knowing that the improvements we’re supposed to see are gradual, slow, and not perfect. The way I was introduced to CBTI gave me the idea that in just 6-8 weeks my sleep would go back to normal completely, to its original version. Now I understand that it’s more about creating a new sleeping pattern that is (way) better than insomnia and not so much about going back to sleeping the way I used to (which was awesome). Maybe one day I’ll get there, but for now I’m happy with the improvements I’m seeing and I’ll take that over insomnia any day!
It’s also good to understand that for a lot of us this is quite a process – it’s like the brain is learning how to sleep all over again, and any major learning process takes a lot of time and does involves setbacks. When I first started SR and SC I was also zig-zagging between the bed and the couch several times through the night ( I think it went on for 4 whole weeks every single night!), and that no longer happens! These days I’ll either just wake up for a few mins and go back to sleep really fast or I’ll get out of bed only once for not even 30 minutes as I’ll get sleepy soon enough. It’s really cool to see these small changes and they make me hopeful that changes will continue to happen even if I have setbacks. One thing that still bothers me is when I stay in light sleep for several hours (that state between awake and asleep) – this usually happens in the 2nd half of the night and I hope with time this will go away as well.
My experience with CBTI:
First 5 weeks: Really rough! Averaged 3-4 hours of sleep every night
6th week: First good week. Averaged 5-6 hours of sleep
7th week: Rough again. Averaged not even 4 hours of sleep
8th week: Good again – Averaged of 5 to 6 hours of sleep
9th: We’ll see and I’m ready to deal with rough nights with a positive and calm attitude (as much as possible)
One thing I’ve loved experiencing since I started CBTI is the sensation of being sleepy! I love that feeling of being sleepy and I hadn’t felt it at all for the 2.5 years of having insomnia. I would feel severely tired and extreme mental fatigue, but never sleepy. This in particular helped me stick with CBTI through those first 5 rough weeks – I could tell something really new and different was going on with my body (feeling sleepy for the first time in 2.5 years is no small thing!). I think especially if you’re not seeing great improvements right away, it’s helpful to try to find just one or two things about CBTI that show you something new is going on in your body; a small clue that something is changing.
Stay strong everyone! Even if it takes you several weeks to see improvement, keep following to protocol, you’ll start seeing improvements at some point!
Karen, thank you so much for sharing your experience! It does help knowing that the improvements we’re supposed to see are gradual, slow, and not perfect. The way I was introduced to CBTI gave me the idea that in just 6-8 weeks my sleep would go back to normal completely, to its original version, but now I understand that it’s more about creating a new sleeping pattern that is (way) better than insomnia, not so much about going back to sleeping the way I used to (which was awesome). Maybe one day I’ll get there, but for now I’m happy with the improvements I’m seeing and I’ll take that over insomnia any day!
It’s also good to understand that for a lot of us this is quite a process – it’s like the brain is learning how to sleep all over again, and any major learning process takes a lot of time and does involves setbacks. When I first started SR and SC I was also zig-zagging between the bed and the couch several times through the night, and that no longer happens! These days I’ll either just wake up for a few mins and go back to sleep really fast or I’ll get out of bed only once for not even 30 minutes as I’ll get sleepy soon enough. It’s really cool to see these small changes and they make me hopeful that changes will continue to happen even if I have setbacks. One thing that still bothers me is when I stay in light sleep for several hours (that state between awake and asleep) – this usually happens in the 2nd half of the night and I hope with time this will go away as well.
My experience with CBTI:
First 5 weeks: Really rough! Averaged 3-4 hours of sleep every night
6th week: First good week. Averaged 5-6 hours of sleep
7th week: Rough again. Averaged not even 4 hours of sleep
8th week: Good again – Averaged of 5 to 6 hours of sleep
One thing I’ve loved experiencing since I started CBTI is the sensation of being sleepy! I love that feeling of being sleepy and I hadn’t felt it at all for the 2.5 years of having insomnia. I would feel severely tired and extreme mental fatigue, but never sleepy. This in particular helped me stick with CBTI through those first 5 rough weeks – I could tell something really new and different was going on with my body (feeling sleepy for the first time in 2.5 years is no small thing!). I think especially if you’re not seeing great improvements right away, it’s helpful to try to find just one or two things about CBTI that show you something new is going on in your body; a small clue that something is changing.
Stay strong everyone! Even if it takes you several weeks to see improvement, keep following to protocol, you’ll start seeing improvements at some point!
First I have to say it’s really awesome to see everyone supporting one another here, and for me, it really helps to know I’m not alone in this difficult experience. Lots of gratitude to everyone for sharing your experience and being so kind and compassionate all around.
Mac, I so understand your frustration and the sick feeling from this – I have actually cried in the past out of sadness and frustration. I used to be a freaking amazing sleeper and it’s honestly been a devastating loss to me. I also developed insomnia 2.5 years ago and I’m the same age. I get you, but I also think Deb has such a good point in saying that our attitude will (greatly?) influence how we sleep. When I go through these periods of frustration, I allow myself to go there but then remind myself that the negative attitude won’t do me any good and it’s best to snap out of it as soon as you can – sometimes it will take me half a day or a whole day to snap out of it. It sucks, I know! Reality feels strangely different and I almost feel a little insane after many nights of bad sleep but it’s really about having “control” of the mind and not letting yourself sink with negativity because of the uncomfortable symptoms from not sleeping well. Mindfulness works wonders in times like these.
Deb – thank you for the positive outlook. I think you can be a role model to us as you seem to have mastered riding these waves with lightheartedness and without such a strict mindset. I’m going to work on it from now on and try as much as possible to have the attitude you have – you seem to have learned to relax into the situation, even when it’s bad. And in answering your question: yes, I have experienced nights of 6 or 7 hours of sleep straight even when I was struggling with insomnia, they were rare but I’d have a whole week of it every now and then, that’s why I don’t have my hopes up yet. Only if these become more permanent will I get more excited and hopeful. I do think not having a bed time is key for me right now.
Maybe we would all benefit from coming to an understanding and acceptance that it will either take a very long time (months? Couple of years?) for the change to be permanent, or that sleep will be improved compared to the past but perhaps never entirely back to what it was? I don’t mean to bum anyone out, I’m just getting to the point where 6 hours of sleep through the night is good enough for me and I’ll be grateful for it if it can be permanent.
I was thinking earlier about how whatever the brain learns, it’s difficult for it to unlearn entirely, isn’t that right? The brain learned how to ride a bike, so even if you don’t sit on a bike for years, when you do, you’ll remember how to ride it. Our brains learned a different way to sleep=insomnia so it won’t necessarily unlearn it, but it will “use” the bad learned method= insomnia, less frequently, and the new good method= CBTI, more frequently. Between waves of bad sleep and sleeping badly all the time, I’ll take first option 🙂
Right, I agree. I think our mental state can interfere with the quality of our sleep or ability to fall asleep. I’ve noticed if I fall asleep after feeling experiencing some sleep anxiety, I end up staying on light sleep all night long – I’m pretty sure it’s the survival mechanism mentioned on video 1 of the online paid course.
Also, I think it’s one of the reasons SR doesn’t work well for me – when I start getting THAT tired and sleepy I tend to get tense and nervous because during the 2 years I’ve had of insomnia being overtired meant NOT BEING ABLE TO SLEEP AT ALL – I think my brain made an association between being too tired and not being able to sleep. I have been going to bed around 10:40 pm (when I feel relaxedly tired) and have been falling asleep in 10, 15 mins.. AH!! It’s such a good feeling!
Deb- Yes, I’m implementing all of the techniques, the only one I’m not implementing right now is a set bed time, but will still always wake up at the same time every day. Last night I slept from 10:45pm to 4:00 am straight – I woke up alert but tired and sleepy, so my body wanted more sleep but just couldn’t get back to it. It’s not ideal to wake up that early, but honestly, just to get good quality sleep with no awakenings already makes me grateful at this point! My insomnia is all over the place, it changes from week to week between sleep onset, awakenings in the middle of the night, or just waking up too early
Steve, that’s good! I think the changes come slowly and yes, it’s still early to see a lot of improvement, keep up the good work 🙂
Pam, from what I have learned – yes, micro sleeps and naps will decrease homeostatic drive to sleep (sleep pressure) so you want to avoid them as much as possible. For me, it’s impossible to avoid micro sleeps in the last hour or 2 of SR, even if I’m sitting up straight on the floor, I’ll fall asleep for 2 seconds or so. I think these don’t affect as much, so definitely keep it to a minimum. And yes, this process is brutal but it does work for most people. For me unfortunately it often leads my body and mind into tension and overdrive :/
Deb, has sleep restriction not worked so well for you? Steve , how is it going for you?
I have been doing SR for 8 weeks now and I only had 1 week of good sleep. My sleep efficiency on week 6 was 84% and then on week 7 it went right back down to 68% -it’s been impossible not to feel frustrated and hopeless.
I am deciding on my own (and will get feedback from Martin on this soon) to do a “partial” sleep restriction. My idea is to wake up at the same time every day (5:30am) but start going to bed whenever I feel “relaxedly” sleepy (never earlier than 10:30pm). This relaxed sleepiness is a sensation I hadn’t felt in over 2 years (ever since I developed insomnia) and thanks to CBTI I started feeling it again, but insisting on going to bed after so many hours of feeling sleepy is actually starting to “cut off” that feeling. I find this relaxed sleepiness so precious and such a wonderful wave to go into sleep.
I know SR works for a lot of people but when I stay awake for that long while fighting sleepiness, it stresses me out, it puts my mind and body into overdrive and I feel anything but relaxed and ready for sleep when I get in bed – it’s almost as if my brain is getting the message that we need to stay awake, so now we WILL stay awake. I think SR in itself causes my arousal system to activate. It’s insane to be collapsing of sleepiness, to get in bed and not be able to fall asleep after almost 8 weeks of doing this. I don’t know if this “partial SR” is a good idea, but I’m not seeing any other way of continuing this. I don’t want to give up on the whole thing as I see the logic behind it but I do think I need some modification..
