[delv-x]

@pam

Small naps under 20 minutes before 3PM generally won’t affect sleep drive. Longer naps or naps closer to time in bed will reduce sleep drive.

As for napping, it’s a tough call. Some say never, others say before 3PM and keep them short.

[Borgesbi]

Right, I agree. I think our mental state can interfere with the quality of our sleep or ability to fall asleep. I’ve noticed if I fall asleep after feeling experiencing some sleep anxiety, I end up staying on light sleep all night long – I’m pretty sure it’s the survival mechanism mentioned on video 1 of the online paid course.

Also, I think it’s one of the reasons SR doesn’t work well for me – when I start getting THAT tired and sleepy I tend to get tense and nervous because during the 2 years I’ve had of insomnia being overtired meant NOT BEING ABLE TO SLEEP AT ALL – I think my brain made an association between being too tired and not being able to sleep. I have been going to bed around 10:40 pm (when I feel relaxedly tired) and have been falling asleep in 10, 15 mins.. AH!! It’s such a good feeling!

Deb- Yes, I’m implementing all of the techniques, the only one I’m not implementing right now is a set bed time, but will still always wake up at the same time every day. Last night I slept from 10:45pm to 4:00 am straight – I woke up alert but tired and sleepy, so my body wanted more sleep but just couldn’t get back to it. It’s not ideal to wake up that early, but honestly, just to get good quality sleep with no awakenings already makes me grateful at this point! My insomnia is all over the place, it changes from week to week between sleep onset, awakenings in the middle of the night, or just waking up too early

[Mac0908]

Extremely rough weekend here, and past three days in general going back to Thursday night. Friday night was interesting as I was out and not home until 11pm. Long story short I had no sleep drive until around midnight and even then it wasn’t exhaustion. But I had big plans on Saturday so anxiety began to creep in about getting a good night of sleep and how going to bed so late and having to wake early to maintain the window would affect me. This is one area where anxiety still seems to always get me. Sasha Stephens would call it “special event insomnia”. Anyway, I crashed around 12:30am and it was just a bad night of sleep. I finally got out of bed around 7:20am which was way past my 6:30 weekend wakeup time. But that 7:20am wakeup wasn’t before being in and out of sleep the last couple of hours, so it felt.

Then last night things got even worse, somehow. While general sleep anxiety was now calmed down, I again (don’t ask why) went to bed without being exhausted. I was tired, but the sleep drive wasn’t really there. Probably because of me sleeping so late that morning. I just had this idea in my head that two BAD nights in a row haven’t happened in so long, that I would be surprised if they did. I finally ended up passing out around midnight, only to wake up at 5:56am. Today I am an absolute zombie.

Sorry to vent with negativity now , but this really is finally getting disgusting to me at this point. Like is this really my life now? Where I’ve been so traumatized for SO long over sleep that ANYTIME I go to bed without being completely sleepy/exhausted it guarantees me an off/bad night? That regardless of my sleep anxiety being leaps and bounds better than it was even 6 months ago, ANYTIME I break my sleep window or sleep in its a recipe for an absolute disaster? I just cannot do this any longer. I’ve seen improvement in many areas, yes, but one thing has remained constant, and that is the fact that I don’t think I’ve ever come close to 100% healed. At least not after seeing things like this past weekend happen.

2.5 years later, 34 years old, here I still am. Looking at horrific dark circles under my eyes in the mirror, another weekend day completely shot. Now ok, on a positive note, it should be known that it’s been a LONG while since a bad weekend, but that’s not really my point. My point is that it’s becoming harder and harder as time goes on for so long, to think that there is a total and complete escape from this.

Any words of encouragement would help today. Thanks.

-Mac

• This reply was modified 4 years, 11 months ago by Mac0908.
• This reply was modified 4 years, 11 months ago by Mac0908.

[Deb]

Mac – So sorry you had a bad weekend! But yes, remind yourself that it’s been a long time since you’ve had a bad weekend, so you WILL get back on track and get better again soon.

I’m going to say some things that you’ll probably disagree with and maybe it’s a moot point because you’re naturally going to get better soon anyway. But I think that sometimes you’re too hard on yourself Mac in the sense of beating yourself up and worrying when you deviate a little. For myself, I make allowances from time to time. For instance, if I’m not sleepy enough at the beginning of the sleep window I’ll stay up until I am and then push my wake up time to a half hour later. I don’t worry about it and then just get back on track the next day. So I don’t worry about these deviations of just a half hour or so. As a result I usually sleep fine.

I’m also not real good about jumping out of bed as soon as the alarm goes off. I may stay in bed for a half hour or even longer. But as long as I’m sleepy enough at night which I always seem to be, I don’t have any trouble sleeping. So maybe it’s the attitude about the deviations from the strictness that count. I don’t get anxious about them and then they don’t seem to affect my sleep. Anyway, Mac, hoping for restful nights for you soon again.

Borgesbi – Just curious, was last night’s sleep of 10:45-4:00 longer and more consolidated than before you started CBT-I? If so, it sounds like you’re on the right track. Also your idea of going to bed when you are “relaxed sleepy” sounds like it will be good for you since being too strict only makes you more anxious, and that’s what this whole insomnia mess is all about. I also know what you mean about being so overtired that you can’t fall asleep. When I was at my worst and exhausted all the time, I couldn’t even take naps anymore because my body would just not relax. I would lie in bed for a half hour but never fall asleep. It was so frustrating.

[Mac0908]

Thank you for your words Deb. I really do appreciate them. I know I am hard on myself, but when you realize this has been going on for over 2.5 years (even if I didn’t finally crack down until just this past January), it creates a sickening feeling in my stomach. A feeling that, even though it’s pretty much false, this is permanently my life now. Again Deb, over 2.5 years of on and off bad sleeping. Sure i’ve been doing well as of late in general, but to have what was really THREE bad nights now, I just can’t. I just don’t know. I know saying I’m and tired of being tired comes off as comical and silly, but in my world, it’s just on another level. Let’s hope and pray that this is my very last back to back night bad weekend for a very very long time.

[Deb]

Yes, we will hope for you that this will be the last of bad weekends for a long time. The week or two before this past week was difficult for me too. I even ended up resorting to Ambien again when I couldn’t sleep for hours. Fortunately, I’m back on track again. Have slept through the night 5 nights in a row.

One thing to remind yourself too Mac, is that this is the first time in 2.5 years that you’ve really committed to SR and to not slacking off after a few weeks. So you’re going to get much better this time around, and also this time it will stick.

[Mac0908]

Thanks Deb. I need to realize that this SRT HAS been working for me. I repeat, it HAS been working. Sure not every single night, but these last 3 weeks alone before this weekend came I’ve probably only had about 3 off nights. And these off nights as you know only came after I tampered with the therapy by messing up my window. I just have to stay positive and be happy that I’ve made progress, even if that progress/SRT began 5 months ago now. Nobody ever said this was an easy thing to get over.

[Deb]

So you’re making good progress. And it’s natural to feel a lot of anxiety when things don’t go well since you’ve had this so long. Maybe that’s why it’s a little easier for me to relax.

[Mac0908]

I’m surprised you went to Ambien during a recent bad spell. Sasha Stephens basically says drop the pills no matter what. My question to you is this… how did things get so bad that you had to resort to this?

[Deb]

It started when my husband was out of town for a week and I got away from my routine, staying up late watching movies or playing the piano. My sleep started slipping and then I started to lose confidence, taking a big downward dip for the next week or so. I was shook up and contacted Martin about possibly getting back on the program. He reminded me that I’ve gotten back on track before, and I will again. That seemed to help and then sure enough, I started getting better.

About the Ambien, again I’m not so strict as Sasha and there are no things that I can’t “absolutely not” do.  I just didn’t care at the moment and figured it would only be temporary, which it was. I took it 3 times and then got back on track.

[delv-x]

@Mac

Sorry to hear about your latest update. Frustrating, tired, exhausted and defeated aren’t even good enough words. I do hope this is the last bad wave for a very long time.

I am actually still on a bad wave. It’s been oh 11 days in a row now of 3-4ish hours of sleep. I’ve been pretty meh about it at first because I know they will pass in time. If I need to get out of bed I am not as worried as I would have been months ago but after a week of this I’ve become more concerned. I keep reading about sleep facts “Your body knows how to sleep and can never be undone”, “sleep is as basic as breathing and eating”, “you can’t control how many hours you can sleep”, “sleep is an effortless process”.

Words of encouragement is welcomed. I am hoping that I start trending upwards.

[Deb]

Sorry you’re going through a difficult spell, Delv. Good that you’re confident that it will pass in time since you’ve had experience with this. Wishing you better sleep to come soon.

[Slarus]

This program is brutal but it is starting to work for me. The first four days of SR were horrible with little or no sleep. I was so exhausted by the fourth day I couldn’t even focus my eyes or read. And then, I slept. My sleep window is 12:00 midnight – 6:30. Steve helped me straighten that out. I had one that was too long for SR to be effective.  The last three nights I have stayed within my sleep window and have slept most of that time. I usually wake up a few minutes before the alarm goes off but this morning I slept until the alarm went off. But the really good thing is that I am falling asleep soon after I go to bed. My big problem was sleep onset. I just couldn’t get there. I’m going to stay on this schedule for a full two weeks and if I’m sleeping, will raise the awake time 15 minutes and see if I can slowly climb back up to 6-7 hours a night. I can always cut back if I need too but I would like to feel rested instead of being so dead dog tired all the time. Keep at it you guys and gals. I’m convinced this will work for most people but it takes time and incredible commitment to work through it. I’m far from being there yet. By the way one of the joys of retirement was not having to get up to an alarm so it’s pitiful to have to do that again.

[gsdmom]

I have a couple questions about Sleep Restriction. If you have a partner and want to be intimate at night, do you have sex in bed, then afterward leave the bedroom until your sleep restriction time, say 12:00am?

Do you start the night by trying to sleep in your bed, but if cannot fall asleep in say 20-30 minutes, do you then get out of bed and stay up to your specific time, then go back to bed?

 

[Borgesbi]

First I have to say it’s really awesome to see everyone supporting one another here, and for me, it really helps to know I’m not alone in this difficult experience. Lots of gratitude to everyone for sharing your experience and being so kind and compassionate all around.

Mac, I so understand your frustration and the sick feeling from this – I have actually cried in the past out of sadness and frustration. I used to be a freaking amazing sleeper and it’s honestly been a devastating loss to me. I also developed insomnia 2.5 years ago and I’m the same age. I get you, but I also think Deb has such a good point in saying that our attitude will (greatly?) influence how we sleep. When I go through these periods of frustration, I allow myself to go there but then remind myself that the negative attitude won’t do me any good and it’s best to snap out of it as soon as you can – sometimes it will take me half a day or a whole day to snap out of it. It sucks, I know! Reality feels strangely different and I almost feel a little insane after many nights of bad sleep but it’s really about having “control” of the mind and not letting yourself sink with negativity because of the uncomfortable symptoms from not sleeping well.  Mindfulness works wonders in times like these.

Deb – thank you for the positive outlook. I think you can be a role model to us as you seem to have mastered riding these waves with lightheartedness and without such a strict mindset.  I’m going to work on it from now on and try as much as possible to have the attitude you have – you seem to have learned to relax into the situation, even when it’s bad. And in answering your question: yes, I have experienced nights of 6 or 7 hours of sleep straight even when I was struggling with insomnia, they were rare but I’d have a whole week of it every now and then, that’s why I don’t have my hopes up yet. Only if these become more permanent will I get more excited and hopeful. I do think not having a bed time is  key for me right now.

Maybe we would all benefit from coming to an understanding and acceptance that it will either take a very long time (months? Couple of years?) for the change to be permanent, or that sleep will be improved compared to the past but perhaps never entirely back to what it was? I don’t mean to bum anyone out,  I’m just getting to the point where  6 hours of sleep through the night is good enough for me and I’ll be grateful for it if it can be permanent.

I was thinking earlier about how whatever the brain learns, it’s difficult for it to unlearn entirely, isn’t that right? The brain learned how to ride a bike, so even if you don’t sit on a bike for years, when you do, you’ll remember how to ride it. Our brains learned a different way to sleep=insomnia so it won’t necessarily unlearn it, but it will “use” the bad learned method= insomnia, less frequently, and the new good method= CBTI, more frequently.  Between waves of bad sleep and sleeping badly all the time, I’ll take first option  🙂

[Author]

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