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Hello Tatyana
First time I wanna say is There is absolutely nothing wrong with you! It is just your thoughts about sleep that is causing and perpetuating your sleep disruption. Nobody sleeps fine one night and then “lose it forever” afterwards. It just doesn’t happen that way. Most likely it is your fear and anxiety that is causing continual insomnia because everyone can sleep! Absolutely no doubt about that. When you went to bed early before all this started, how long have you spent awake? If it’s less than 17-18 hours then of course you found it hard to sleep. Sleep drive is a lot like hunger, it builds from not sleeping (or eating) long enough. Let’s say your regular bedtime is midnight, and your regular wake time is 7 or 8 am. That’s 16-17 hours of wakefulness that generates 7-8 hours of sleep. If suddenly, you then go to bed early at 9 or 10pm due to an early morning engagement the next morning, and you’ve woken up at 8am that morning, you’ve only spent 13-14 hours awake and that amount of waketime is simply not sufficient to build the sleep drive you need to fall asleep and stay asleep. I find the amount of time spent continuously awake is the single key determinant of the quality of sleep we then get. Nothing can generate sleepiness, no medicines, no sleepy teas, no supplements EXCEPT being awake SUFFICIENTLY.Excellent for you! I too have recovered from insomnia. I am much more educated and aware about sleep. I now sleep very soundly, in fact, I sleep even better than before my insomnia!
So you are saying you sleep until 8am every morning then go to bed again at 10pm? That’s just 14 hours spent awake. Normal human beings need to be awake at least 16 hours to generate 8 hours of sleep every night. But most people sleep only 6 hours anyway so 18 hours of continuous wakefulness is more appropriate. Sleepiness is like hunger, it builds from not sleeping/eating. If you try to sleep after just 14 hours spent awake, your body might think you just want to nap, which is kinda like having snacks before your main meal. Then when you’ve taken your snacks, of course your hunger is reduced. Try going to bed at a time based on hours spent awake continuously, not what time it is. In your case, I think it would be appropriate to try 17-18 hours. You’ve just told me you stayed up until 2am on a Fri, after which you slept all the way to 9 am? Well that’s a hint there because if you wake at 8am and then stay awake until 2am, that’s 18 hours spent awake, most people would have a healthy sleep drive after being up this long. Experiment what works for you, try 16,17,18 hours. I hope you find this helps. Good luck!
Hello there,
In that long post, you havent mentioned what time do you wake up after falling asleep at 3am? I am thinking something along the line of a sleep chronotype thing, that you might be a night owl, i.e., you tend to sleep better with a later bedtime. Have you tried going to bed at midnight? You also haven’t mentioned how you feel during the day after your perceived poor sleep. Do you feel sleepy or keep struggling to stay awake throughout the day? Some people naturally only need 5 hours of sleep and normal people actually only sleep 6 hours instead of the usual eight, actually spending roughly an hour or so awake. Again I’m no expert, maybe Martin or Scott has a better answer for you. But in any case, I hope you find something that works for you in the long run.
Hello Stu
I am so sorry you are going through a rough patch now. Sometimes it is the struggle with sleeplessness that is making it worse. Indeed that was the case with me and I now consider myself recovered and no longer having insomnia. I realise during my recovery that it was my struggle with sleep that were making the symptoms worse, like being lethargic, nervous, scared and having physical symptoms like you described, all day. I got involuntary muscle twitches very frequently too. When night time came around, I would get very nervous and of course, I then couldn’t get any sleep. These symptoms are very common with people who are struggling mentally and physically with something that just doesn’t respond to any type of effort, mental and physical. A mental struggle can be as exhausting as a physical one. I eventually got better once I gave up the struggle. Being okay with not sleeping and not caring how I slept for a particular night. Be friends with wakefulness because being awake is not a threat and you have simply conditioned your mind into perceiving it is a some sort of danger that needs immediate addressing. So you need to work on that aspect. Other things that helped include only going to bed when sleepy, for me that’s being awake for at least 16-18 hours, having no expectation of sleeping (in other words, not being attached with the outcome and lying in bed resting can be as comforting) and the more I gave up on sleeping, the faster, better and longer I slept. That is basically it. Sleep is natural and effortless, not a struggle. Don’t treat like going to bed as if going to battle or going to an exam hall to take a test. There is nothing to learn or fight against when it comes to sleeping. There are no prizes to be won for winning the “battle” or passing the “exam”. It is just something every human being is naturally good at. Sleeping!
Hi Peanut,
I concur with Scott on this one because I went through it myself. I took 5mg Ambien like you did, didn’t feel the slightest hint of sleepiness then out of frustration, took the other 5mg which also didn’t work either. Just made me drowsy but not sleepy. I then realise it wasn’t those pills that made me sleepy, it was staying awake long enough! Back then, I was trying to sleep after being awake for just 10-12 hours, for normal people, a good level of sleepiness sets in after being awake for 16-18 hours. Try going to bed after being awake that long, you may find you actually CAN and WILL sleep without meds at all. I wouldn’t recommend using sleeping pills to sleep because of the extreme grogginess you get the next day. Sometimes it’s even worse than not having slept at all because meds obliterates the deepest and most restorative stage of sleep, preventing your brain from reaching this stage and hence you feel tired and lethargic no matter how long you slept.Hello there,
How long have you slept before you wake up feeling anxious? If you have slept for at least 6 hours, it is very likely you are quite well rested and waking up is normal. And waking up during the night is pretty common for most people too! So why are anxious about not sleeping? Is it because you feel sleep is like a black box and therefore mysterious, and your fear that lack of sleep will damage you in some way? Actually sleep is very easy to understand, it is a lot like hunger. Sleepiness builds from staying awake long enough, in the same way as the longer you don’t eat, the hungrier you get. The process of eating is analogous to going to bed, you allow the ideal conditions for both processes to take place. What happens after that is entirely controlled by your body, in the same way digestion takes place without your intervention, so when you fall asleep, your body goes through all the stages of sleep on its own. Sleep is easy if you understand it. So why are you still anxious about not sleeping? Does it mean you worry about not eating then? The process is the same, if you delay eating your meals, you end up hungrier and therefore may eat more. Same way as sleep. If you haven’t slept enough for one night, your body will make up for it automatically the next night by making you sleepier earlier so you go to bed earlier. But over time your body will determine the amount of sleep it needs and the process is self-regulating. What you need to do is just go to bed after being awake long enough, for normal people, that’s 17-18 hours. When you go to bed, tell yourself it is okay if you don’t sleep because your body will make up for it the next night and when you feel like sleep might come, just close your eyes and don’t monitor if you haven’t fallen asleep. Just let your mind drift and before you know it, you have fallen asleep! You might jerks as you fall asleep and that’s normal! Just don’t pay any attention to them and you will fall asleep eventually! Good luck! Great sleep is easy, natural for everyone and completely effortless.Hello Allison
How is your sleep window like? Are you going to bed after being awake for at least 17-18 hours? Sleepiness is like hunger, it builds from not sleeping/eating long enough. When you get anxious about not sleeping, I find accepting it and not struggling works well. Tell yourself fine, if I can’t sleep, it’s okay too. Over time, your brain learns to accept that wakefulness is not a threat and you may drift off to sleep faster. Doing nothing works well because sleep is supposed to be natural and effortless, if you feel like sleep might come just close your eyes and let your body take over, don’t monitor whether you have fallen asleep, just let it happen on its own.To understand more about sleep, I highly recommend you view this sleep coach’s podcast when he compares sleeping and eating.
That is a very a good analogy of sleep. Basically, anyone can sleep every single time as long as they have stayed awake long enough, in the same way hunger builds the longer you refrain from eating. Absolutely no mystery there! It is just a biological process that happens with accumulation and depletion, same way as draining and recharging your smart phone batteries every time you use it.
Hello Jaylogan,
Congratulations buddy! I too am a fellow recoverer of having sleep issues in the past, actually right about the same time as you experienced them.
Like you, I too am getting 6.5-7.5 hours of sleep consistently now. My bedtime is now 10-1030 pm to 6-630 am. I purposely put extra time in bed for any bonus sleep that may happen if my body allows it.
I also no longer do stimulus control if I can’t sleep or waking up too early, I just stay in bed, not struggling and close my eyes if I feel like sleeping. Often times, I do find myself drifting back to sleep again. The key is not struggle with sleeplessness. Be okay with not sleeping, just be friends with wakefulness.
My typical bad night now is just taking longer to fall asleep and that’s okay because if I am sleeping really well and not being sleep deprived, then it’s normal to take longer to drift off into sleep. On good nights, I would fall asleep pretty fast and sleep for 6-6.5 hours, which is my core sleep duration. I would then wake an hour or two before my out of bed time, and I would use the toilet and go back to bed for any bonus sleep, which tends to be light and fragmented.
I do get sleep inertia after getting out of bed but I find drinking green tea early in the day helps with this without flooding my body with too much caffeine. I am also not a coffee-lover so I don’t drink coffee.
If anyone has any success stories or tips to share, feel free to post in here. Or fellow people who are currently facing sleep issues and need help/guidance, feel free to post too and I’ll try my best to help any way I can, based on what I learnt so far and my understanding about the physiology of sleep.
Hey there… It’s really up to you to decide at that point if you want to lie in or get up and start your day early. Martin has a podcast about this in youtube and he said the same thing. The choice is up to you. If you enjoy laying in a warm cosy bed despite not sleeping, then by all means, just lie in. Or if you have stuffs to get done for the day, you might as well get up and start doing them. But if you do lie in, I’d caution you that if you do fall asleep, which is great, you might be jolted awake by your alarm in the midst of a deep sleep state, and that would leave you waking up in an extremely groggy state which is worse than not sleeping at all. I know this because I had it before. Generally if you want to lie in, it’s best to wake up naturally. Just my 2 cents worth. Hope it helps and good luck!
Hello Evian!
I am a graduate of Martin’s course a few months back and I am back to sleeping normally again now. For me, I find not worrying about not sleeping is key to overcoming any anxious thoughts about not sleeping. I still get difficult nights and it just doesn’t bother me as much anymore. I just know if I take longer to fall asleep, then it must mean I am sleeping well and I am not being sleep deprived, which is a good sign. If I was sleep deprived, I would dive right into deep sleep as soon as my head hit the pillow.Basically what is sleep? It is just a core biological process that happens after a person has been awake long enough, for normal human beings, that’s 16-18 hours then that person will naturally feel sleepy and goes to sleep for 6-8 hours. Think of it like breathing which is another core biological process. Will you feel suffocated if you didn’t breathe a certain way? Or do you obsess over how many inhalations or exhalations you make in a minute or in a day and make this your entire obsession for the entire day that you are awake? Well, no because you just let your body do all the work without any intervention from you at all. Sleep is like that exactly. It is effortless and self-regulating, because if you slept poorly one night, you will most likely make up for it the next night by being extremely sleepy earlier and this is your body’s way of prompting you to go to bed earlier because it wants to rest. This is the common problem for people with sleep problems and they are constantly obsessed about sleeping for all of their wakeful hours. You can have sleep thoughts and it is just that. Just a thought. Treat them like any other non sleep-related thoughts and thoughts have no bearing over your sleep ability or your sleep drive. I found also yawning is not a good indicator of sleepiness. People yawn all the time when they get bored but are not necessarily sleepy. True sleepiness is a struggle to stay awake, difficulty in focusing what you are reading or watching and difficulty in keeping your eyes open.
Why do you perceive not sleeping when in bed a threat? Is your life in immediate danger if you don’t sleep for one night? Well no. Not sleeping for one or two nights is not dangerous at all and normal people get it all the time. So be rational about it and you don’t have to believe
everything your mind is telling you. Accept these thoughts and acknowledge them but you don’t have to believe them. Tell yourself you will deal with any sleepless nights WHEN they happen and not before. Just know that you can sleep naturally and it will eventually come. And if you find yourself awake in bed, then be okay with lying awake in bed. Get comfy between the sheets and be thankful you still have a comfy bed to rest in and that you are well and alive and accept that you might not sleep and that’s okay because there will be endless opportunities to sleep again in future. Your quality of life is not determined by how you sleep in one single night. I found this useful phrase from Daniel Erichsen’s podcasts in youtube “When you no longer fear X , then X has no control over you”. X in this case is sleeplessness. Be friends with sleeplessness. Be kind and gentle to yourself during difficult nights. Practise self compassion to yourself, if a friend comes to you and tells you he can’t sleep, what would you say to him? Of course you would console him and tell him everything’s gonna be okay and not to be too hard on himself. So do exactly just that to yourself. You need just 2 things to sleeping well again, 1. Stay awake long enough. This usually means having regular sleep and wake times. 2. Have a positive and accepting attitude and being NATO (not attached to the outcome) , i.e., being okay with sleeping or not sleeping, either way is okay, it doesn’t matter anymore. And that’s it. Sleep is easy and simple, the easier you make it without doing a ton of sleep efforts in an attempt to sleep, the better you sleep!It actually sounds like you are sleeping quite well, I estimate you slept like 4.5 hours in the first stretch, then 1.5 hours in the 2nd. With these amounts I would reckon you would have reached your core sleep duration, i.e., the minimum amount of sleep you really need. Any sleep after that is considered bonus eventhough it’s broken because if your body doesn’t really need that sleep, you kinda get it in small bouts, similar to what normal people get when they take afternoon naps. That is also why you said you felt much better with broken sleep because most people feel so much better after taking these naps too. You are doing absolutely fine and you need to start believing you are sleeping well. You will still wake up even when sleeping well but that is completely normal. But if you are no longer anxious about sleep and no longer see waking up as a threat, you will fall asleep pretty quickly again in the 2nd stretch. With that said, I think alloting 10 hours for sleep is too much and 7-8 hours will be more than enough to get that core + any bonus sleep in my opinion. Use that extra 2-3 hours to do things you really enjoy, think of it as God’s gift to enjoy life so why do you want to spend it sleeping? You only live once so go out and enjoy! Hope this helps and remember, life is meant to be enjoyed not spent sleeping half the time!
Hello Sarah
I find not caring how you sleep and being okay with wakefulness is key to overcoming sleep anxiety issues such as these. Can not sleeping actually hurt you? Are you in immediate danger if you can’t sleep? The answer is no! Being in immediate danger means being chased by a lion, standing on a high rise’s edge with no protection and things like that. Are any of these things happening? No, it’s just not sleeping. It can’t hurt you. Nothing happens if you don’t sleep for a day or two. Every time you get anxious about not sleeping, don’t fight it and just let it come. Challenge it to cause some kind of hurt to you and most likely, it won’t because there’s NO danger! Over time, your body will start to relax until if you find yourself not sleeping in bed, it doesn’t bother you anymore. You can just rest in bed until natural sleep takes over. This is what normal sleepers do, not being afraid of not sleeping while in bed. You absolutely have what it takes to be a normal sleeper again, once you realise there’s no danger and start adopting a non-caring attitude over sleep. Hope this helps and good luck!
