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Hi Carls,
Well you will have to roll your eyes a few times on these forums, because there are many like that.
I guess someone who gets 4 to 6 hours and is v worried about that and cannot function on it, still deserves sympathy, though many might say, “Stop worrying about it and start living”.
Its hard to decry another’s experience, but the range of what people consider bad insomnia is clearly v wide.
On here there are people who regularly get nil sleep, sometimes for three or more days on the trot. And others who are fearful because they only get 6 or even 7 hours regularly.
Steve,
Have a read of my recent comments on the thread, “How do you feel after a night of nil sleep”
May help you.
Hi Edgar,
Yes, sure I would sign up for 4 hours sleep for the rest of my life rather than face episodes where I get nil sleep.
I do feel OK on 4 hours. And no, I never nap in the day, because I agree with the experts on this when they say that that napping for more than 15 minutes will reduce one’s sleep drive the following night.
I think folks out there in the public have to realise that yes, 5 and a half hrs to 7 hours is the normal range for people of my age, but like all things in nature there is a normal distribution curve – so some people are fine on 4 hours, others need 9 hours. I wish the media would stop preaching this 8 hour mantra. Not only is it above the average for people over 40, but it is just that – an average. By referring to the need “for 8 hours” all the time the media make primary insomnia sufferers (people for whom the worry about sleep is what is keeping them awake more than transitory worries about other stuff) more anxious than they ever need to be.
Right now I’m averaging a nice 6 hours sleep, maybe a bit more, but I’m not sure as I have rightly got away from diligently and OBSESSIVELY recording it all the time.
But I am realistic and I now listen to my body.
So the night before last I got maybe 7 and half hours sleep – a lot for me. Last night I played my 8 a side football (not bad for a man of 56 doing that twice a week), went to one of our fine London hostelries with my footy pals to do plenty of man-talk about the game, women, this Brexit rubbish. Had a pint and a half of cider. Went home, felt life was great. Had bath. But was still up and buzzing from the game and the fun. So not the slightest bit tired. So, instead of trying to sleep, I watched TV until I felt tired – which was not till 240am. Slept maybe from 315am to 630am. Got up, felt great.
In the old days I would have tried to sleep when not tired. Now, I listen to my body.
Tonight, I’m sure I’ll be asleep by 11pm, but we shall see.
It’s been 5 weeks since my last nil sleep night.
My episode of insomnia nil-sleep nights last less long each time now.
Solutions –
Listen to your body
Only go to bed when tired.
Try to restrict sleep a bit. In my case it’s best to keep sleep to less than 6 hrs to ensure I’m fully functioning but also tired the next night
Don’t obsess about sleep and how much you get
Try to do the things you normally do
Keep fit
Occasionally I have used Mirtazapine to break up nil sleep episodes – Read my thread on Mirtazapine here. But I appreciate not everyone want to take drugs. I do it very occasionally though.
I’m getting better.
Nil sleep episodes may come back, but I’m sure they will be less long lasting now than they were before. It’s taken 2 and a half years but I think I’m coming out the other end.
Daf (in that there sunny London)
Good advice from Simon there.
I can recommend the books, The Sleep Solution by Chris Winter and the book by Guy Meadows. Both excellent.
I feel that while drugs can help a bit, you may just have to accept this thing as being part of your life. When you do that, you will inevitably feel some increase in calmness.
Sometimes life is a bit s~~t but we have to just live with it and do our best to carry on. Lean on friend too. That’s what friends are for. Don’t suffer alone, like some men do!
Interesting. That happened in the past for me – they stopped working after 3 weeks.
But this time they worked fine for 3 weeks, then I decided to gradually come off. every other night for two weeks, then every third night, which is what I am doing now .. no problems with repeat insomnia or other issues. (One minor effect was that I think it did cut my sex drive a bit when on them!!)
I think difference was this time I always took them at least 1 hour before bed, then made sure I really relaxed, lying down and watching something a bit dull on TV. Always then felt really nicely drowsy and sleep came.
Yes, some say 15mg works too. I guess if a person also has anxiety / depression that might be the right dose. For me anxiety was only transient after a night on nil sleep, otherwise I was fine – no anxiety or depression, so I just opted for 7.5MG.
Only one that’s worked for me is Mirtazapine (called Remeron also)
Zopiclone – Only gives you about 3 hrs sleep and is supposedly addictive. Docs in UK wont keep giving it to you.
CBD oil – Did not work for me
Melatonin – Did not work for me
Phernagan (Dipenhydramine, I think) – Stops working after a few weeks
5 HTP – Did not work for me.
Valerian – Did not work for me.
When I say DID NOT WORK – I mean these drugs did not stop my chronic insomnia i.e. nil-sleep nights, where I was awake all night for maybe 8 nights out of 15. W are talking “proper insomnia” here – not “Oh, I only got 5 hrs sleep insomnia” – that’s not REAL insomnia IMHO.
Here is my experience of Mirtazapine….the one that works, if you take it right!
From all my research on this drug and from own experience, 7.5MG is the right dose for insomnia. Larger doses do not work as well at all. Lots of quality research online on this unusual aspect of it.
15Mg and more is what they give people for ongoing depression, as opposed to feeling depressed the odd day after a “Nil-sleeping” night. It’s use in low doses for people with bad insomnia (as opposed for treatment of depression) is a side-use.
I have found the key is to take it at least one hour before you go to bed. That is really important. Then just relax and lie down. Don’t try to sleep.
Taking it in middle of night, when you cannot get to sleep does not seem to work regularly. It’s not a knockout pill!
I have taken it on a very occasional basis (or for periods of two weeks, when I was getting regular nil-sleep nights) to break those episodes of insomnia up and restore good sleep. It does have a long life and makes you feel drousy into the next day and even next night too, though, so maybe not great for old people who may have poor balance and indeed maybe people who have to drive / operate machinery next day (unless they are prepared to counter with a heavy dose of caffeine).
But it is that long half life – that is good for me. Because even the next night I still feel in a “cool-drousy place” and can sleep well.
It has regularly broken up long episodes of insomnia for me, (where I’m getting nil sleep say two to three times a week for 3 weeks)….. . And it has broken up the pattern.
But seems to work and gives a much longer sleep than Zopiclone.
I got a bit of weight gain with it, (the main side effect for some folks) but that was OK because now I was now sleeping better and feeling better) I was able to do lots more exercise, so that counteracted weight gain. (When I had nights of nil sleep I had to miss my evening football because I had been feeling too depressed).
Generally, I avoid drugs, but this has worked ad hoc for me to break episodes of insomnia.
Of course, its use as anti-insomnia is a side effect of it, this drug is used on regular basis for people with moderate to severe depression.
And in those circs – as a treatment for insomnia – it worked.
I am coming off it now – only taking it every three nights now , and thus far, have had no repeat insomnia.
I also practice all the CBT-I stuff and acceptance commitment therapy – as per Guy Meadows approach. I find both CBTI and ACT work (which is mindfulness based). The only thing that is daft with CBTI in my opinion is the insistence of getting out of bed after 15 mins if you cannot sleep. This, in my view, creates too much pressure. OK, if you are wound up, get out of bed and do something else that is relaxing (I watch nature progs on TV), though I usually can just accept being awake and stay in bed and feel calm. Whatever works for you though.
Hope this helps.
Daf (Him in that there, London)
Of course, I’m not a doctor!
My experience of Mirtazapine….
From all my research on this drug and from own experience, 7.5MG is the right dose for insomnia. Larger doses do not work as well at all. Lots of quality research online on this unusual aspect of it.
15Mg and more is what they give people for ongoing depression, as opposed to feeling depressed the odd day after a “Nil-sleeping” night. It’s use in low doses for people with bad insomnia (as opposed for treatment of depression) is a side-use.
I have found the key is to take it at least one hour before you go to bed. Taking it in middle of night, when you cannot get to sleep does not seem to work regularly. It’s not a knockout pill!
I have taken it on a very occasional basis (or for periods of two weeks, when I was getting regular nil-sleep nights) to break those episodes of insomnia up and restore good sleep. It does have a long life and makes you feel drousy into the next day and even next night too, though, so maybe not great for old people who may have poor balance and indeed maybe people who have to drive / operate machinery next day (unless they are prepared to counter with a heavy dose of caffeine).
But it is that long half life – that is good for me. Because even the next night I still feel in a “cool-drousy place” and can sleep well.
It has regularly broken up long episodes of insomnia for me, (where I’m getting nil sleep say two to three times a week for 3 weeks)….. . And it has broken up the pattern.
But seems to work and gives a much longer sleep than Zopiclone.
I got a bit of weight gain with it, (the main side effect for some folks) but that was OK because now I was now sleeping better and feeling better) I was able to do lots more exercise, so that counteracted weight gain. (When I had nights of nil sleep I had to miss my evening football because I had been feeling too depressed).
Generally, I avoid drugs, but this has worked ad hoc for me to break episodes of insomnia.
Of course, its use as anti-insomnia is a side effect of it, this drug is used on regular basis for people with moderate to severe depression.
And in those circs – as a treatment for insomnia – it worked.
I am coming off it now – only taking it every three nights now , and thus far, have had no repeat insomnia.
I also practice all the CBT-I stuff and acceptance commitment therapy – as per Guy Meadows approach. I find both CBTI and ACT work (which is mindfulness based). The only thing that is daft with CBTI in my opinion is the insistence of getting out of bed after 15 mins if you cannot sleep. This, in my view, creates too much pressure. OK, if you are wound up, get out of bed and do something else that is relaxing (I watch nature progs on TV), though I usually can just accept being awake and stay in bed and feel calm. Whatever works for you though.
Hope this helps.
Daf (Him in that there, London)
Of course, I’m not a doctor!
Hi FrozenSun,
You can read user reviews of mirtazapine for insomnia here:
https://www.drugs.com/comments/mirtazapine/for-insomnia.html
I hope that helps.
Hi Frozen Sun
When I had nights of nil sleep, I used Mirtazapine.
I have written about it on another post…Search “Mirtazapine” on this forum. Took low dose 7.5mg at least 60 mins before you wanted to sleep.
It sorted it out and after 3 weeks was able to gradually reduce and then stop taking it totally. Now sleep is fine. worked for me.
Yep, you are not alone.
Many of us on here have been awake all night many times…. and many of us are getting better in that these “all nighters” as we call them are getting fewer and for some are gone completely.
Read the forums posts to see what people did!
It is a mild sleep inducer, not knock out pills.
It worked well for a few weeks for me, then stopped working. Thought it may be different for you.
Best to take it at least 45 mins before you want to sleep.
Don’t use it every night for weeks – or if you are like me, it may stop working.
Can have side effects – look it up online or it should be listed with the tabs on the notes.
Good luck.
Some good advice there from April38.
Yes, insomnia can just randomly come and go – it does with me – with no obvious cause, so I think there must be a physiology element too.
Try to learn to just accept it when that happens – and as April says, be grateful for just getting some sleep. Like you I have the odd night of nil sleep, but I celebrate when I get some, even if just 2 to 3 hours. Sleep will come in the end, even if you are v worried and stressed about sleep, the sleep drive will overpower the stress response. Practice sleep hygiene too.
Once again, I’m in total agreement with you, which is nice because I think my philosophy differs from some others here – plus the extent of my sleep issues (if measured by actual sleep hours in the recent past – I often have had nil sleep at nights).
Yes, what you are saying explains why rich people are often unhappy, even some committing suicide etc.
Things are going v well for me now in all aspects of life, though I’m v busy. But it’s important to make time to sit and be quiet and have gratitude for all the blessings I have and all the difficulties overcome. And take each day at a time, as I do this.
If you get 5 hrs sleep, then fine.
Average for older people about 6hrs, but like all things there is a distribution curve, so some may get as much as 8 hrs, some may get just four. Stop worrying about it. You are getting some sleep, you weren’t before. Some were getting nil sleep night like me. It’s all an improvement, so try to stop worrying and start living, preferably, “in the moment”!
