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Kho how are you getting on now. Im the same dont sleep for several nights (when i do its only for about an hour then i wake up and cant get back to sleep although i do feel calm) dont go to bed before 1am (sometimes 2am) up at between 7 and 7:30 never feel sleepiness, feel physically calm. Sleep drive should be through the roof but come sleep window time no sleepiness
Probably go to bed when i thought i should or when its maybe a good idea ie getting up for work at 6 or 7 whether i was sleepy or not. Thing is i never feel sleepy now i could stay up all night for several days if it wasnt for the stingy eyes after a certain time at night. Do you suggest pick a sleep window and go to bed at that time or after that time whether sleepy or not and get up roughly the same time. If i stayed up til i felt sleepy it could be never or 6am in the morning then up again after an hour. I dont get any recovery sleep its the same story every night. I get sleep drive cant be controlled and only wakefullness produces sleep. I get you cant force yourself to sleep. My concern of going to bed at roughly the same time is my sleep drive not being high enough for sleep at that point. Every sleep coach ive watched videos on suggests only going to bed when feeling sleepy not when the clock tells you to go. Doesnt matter how long im up i never feel really sleepy even the rare occassion when i do get sleep it only lasts for about 2 hours of light sleep then im up for the rest of the night wide awake
Hi folks sorry been away for a bit so:
am i going to bed at the start of a sleep window even if im not sleepy and just lying there in bed until i do fall asleep
Or am i setting a sleep window and only going to bed when sleepy after it starts (sometimes fall asleep on the couch with this one for an hour)
Or am i abandoning a sleep window start time and only going to bed when sleepy and setting a consistent wake time. Even if abandoning the start time means i spending excessive amount of time in bed.
Also can i go to bed and watch tv or something until i feel sleepy to fall alseep?
So by doing sleep restriction does this not build sleep drive even though you are not treating it as an effort?
Thanks guys
Does the eye bags and dark circles go away after a night of good sleep or do they fade gradually. I have them every morning so just assume ive not slept. How many hours sleep do you need to prevent them or to make them go away is there a minimum we need for them to go away?
Thanks Martin im hoping thats the case and someone can gain something valuable from it. With the sleep drive does it not help overpower the cognitive arousal (or any type really) the more that builds up. I get that if you sleep a bit and then the arousal can take over again
Thanks Martin you are a credit to the forum lots of respect. Reason im asking so many questions is that ive been trying sleep restriction on my own for about a year with very mixed results. I still experience alot of light sleep tim skipping and waking early or struggling to sleep at all to start with. Is it possible my arousal sysyem is still being fed somewhat? I believe i dont experience hyperarousal in the physical sense pounding yeart sweating etc but more the cognitive side of it
Thanks for your input martin so if im still not feeling sleepy at 1am my earliest bedtime i should still not go to bed until i do feel sleepy even if thats 2 or 2:30am?
Thanks Scott
Ive actually just seen a video by Daniel Erichsen on youtube and it says that waiting to go to bed only when you are sleepy can lead to more issues and more hyperarousal as you are then montoring and that sleep can be controlled. Im so confused by that as i thought one of the premises for this was if you are not sleepy you probably wont sleep ie not enough sleep drive and therefor start ascociating the bed with wakefulness and hyperarousal if you had to go to bed before you are sleepy. Read a colin espie book and he had said the same dont go to bed until sleepy. Not really sure what i should be doing to be honest. I always thought the point of getting up at the same time and doing sleep restriction was to generate more sleep drive and in turn ensure sleep drive is more than arousal?
Hi Scott
Its been a while, ive been doing a bit better but on the back of what you said about sleep effort. So yhe intention of doing sleep restriction isn to build sleep drive to ensure you fall asleep quickly when going to bed. Is this not an effort to help you fall asleep or does it not qualify as a sleep effort because its part of cbti? Same as getting up at the same time of day as its scientifically resets the circadian rhythm however is the reason for doing this mean oh if i do this i will feel sleepy around the same time at night (assuming there is enough sleep drive) not a sleep effort. Or again does this not qualify as one as its part of cbti? Or could you classify these things as positive sleep efforts?
Thanks Martin
You say that anxious thoughts about sleep/sleep anxiety and worrying about sleep doesnt affect sleep i thought this was one of the key things that keeps insomnia going along with conditioned arousal and trying to sleep? Also dont usually get the cant keep my eyes open feeling even if i went to bed at 5 and was getting up at 7
In addition I have a horrible tendency to check my eyes in the morning to gauge how I slept. I cannot shift the crescent shaped reddish bags under my eyes. Stay the same every morning and all through the day so just assume Ive not slept at all or only had like 1 hour light sleep at best
I suffer from ocd and my ocd therapist says i should be going to bed at a time that gives me 7 hours sleep at least and that staying up until i feel sleepy is an avoidance behaviour ie im avoiding going to bed because it makes me feel anxious???? I thought that was the whole premise of cbti lol going to bed only when you are sleepy. Thing is i average in a week enought for 5.5 hours sleep which on a wakeup time of 7:30 is 2am. I could stay up til 6am no problem at all and not feel sleepy and not feel.tired when im working the next day i have done so multiple times. So should we be keeping a regular bedtime based on a sleep window and average time in bed alseep or staying up until we are sleepy even if its just giving 1.5 hours sleep??? So confused.
I have been traying to do sleep restriction on my own to no avail. I suffer from what i believe is sensorimotor ocd related to breathing and my cbt specialist (not cbti) says that not going to bed until i feel sleepy is an avoidance behaviour and it needs to stop. She wants me to go to bed at a reasonable time (enough to give me 7 hours sleep even if i dont feel sleepy) which in my case is 12:30 and getting up at 7:30 sharp. I work from home but make sure i get bright light during the day and get 30m of exercise a day just to keep fit etc. Thing is should i be going to bed and do paradoxical intention at 12:30 like my ocd specialist says or stay up until i feel sleepy in the living room on my phone or something with brightness turned way down and dark mode on like cbti says? Thing is a could stay up until 5am and not feel sleepy at all til then and not feel sleepy at all during the day. Am i not feeling sleepy due to my anxiety disorder? I have a sleep tracker and says i only get about 20 mins deep sleep and 20 min rem every night the rest is light and disturbed. I also have tons of little micro arousals through the night.
Poul jennum science of sleep on youtube explains the neuro science part of it very well but Martin will guide you through the behavioral side and overriding the arousal to help you sleep better
Yep i have this too. Insomnia is not comlicated its all hyperarousal anxiety. But its getting that hyperarousal down that is the issue for all of us. More we worry about it the worse it is. The longer you go on with insomnia the more you realise that your life still continues the more the hyperarousal comes down when you dont worry about it. To get technical i believe it all comes from the limbic system (anxiety system) which has inputs to the hypothalamus/orexin which then activates your arousal centres adrenaline etc in the brain stem this then overeides your sleep drive . Its like a flip flop. But its all hyperarousal
