Sleep efforts

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This topic contains 9 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by Grangers 2 weeks ago.

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  • #50407

    Grangers
    ✘ Not a client

    Hi

    Ive been doing ok but wanted to know if what im foing are sleep efforts

    Been trying to get up at the same time every morning apart from maybe an extra hour at the weekend – is this a sleep effort as cbti dictates that it goves more time for sleep drive and resets you circadian rhythm

    I have been doing more excercise trying not to be sedentary as i know this will build more sleep drive. Is this a sleep effort?

    Been trying to avoid going on my mobile phone late at night in the linving room not bed as i know this makes you more alert – is not going on my mobile at night a sleep effort

    Staying up late til like 2 am (getting up at 6:30am) in order to make myslef sleepy before i go to bed – is this a sleep effort?

    #50411

    Scott
    Mentor

    It sounds like you’ve been doing a good job of implementing CBT-I techniques! Instead of identifying individual activities and classifying them as sleep effort, I think it might be better suited if we offer a blanket definition for it. Any practice you engage in or decision you make in an effort to improve your sleep or to force sleep to arrive instead of doing it for the simple pleasure of it, is probably considered sleep effort. Adding or removing things in your life in hopes it generates (better) sleep, is considered sleep effort. If we put effort into fixing our sleep, it doesn’t reward us for our hard work and can actually perpetuate the issue.

    Does that help?

    Scott J

    The content of this post is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied.
    #54450

    Grangers
    ✘ Not a client

    Hi Scott

    Its been a while, ive been doing a bit better but on the back of what you said about sleep effort. So yhe intention of doing sleep restriction isn to build sleep drive to ensure you fall asleep quickly when going to bed. Is this not an effort to help you fall asleep or does it not qualify as a sleep effort because its part of cbti? Same as getting up at the same time of day as its scientifically resets the circadian rhythm however is the reason for doing this mean oh if i do this i will feel sleepy around the same time at night (assuming there is enough sleep drive) not a sleep effort. Or again does this not qualify as one as its part of cbti? Or could you classify these things as positive sleep efforts?

    #54502

    Scott
    Mentor

    Hi @grangers and thanks for the follow up! It sounds like you’ve made some progress since your last post – great job! Sleep restriction isn’t a tool to generate sleep since we can’t force sleep to happen. It;s designed to reduce the amount of time someone spends in bed so it reflects their existing sleep time, but no less than a 5 hr sleep window. It’s built that way because most insomniacs are likely to spend too much time in bed because they feel like they’ll get more sleep but that can lead to arousal and anxious thoughts about our sleep issue.

    Does that help?

    Scott J

    The content of this post is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied.
    #54504

    Grangers
    ✘ Not a client

    Thanks Scott

    Ive actually just seen a video by Daniel Erichsen on youtube and it says that waiting to go to bed only when you are sleepy can lead to more issues and more hyperarousal as you are then montoring and that sleep can be controlled. Im so confused by that as i thought one of the premises for this was if you are not sleepy you probably wont sleep ie not enough sleep drive and therefor start ascociating the bed with wakefulness and hyperarousal if you had to go to bed before you are sleepy. Read a colin espie book and he had said the same dont go to bed until sleepy. Not really sure what i should be doing to be honest. I always thought the point of getting up at the same time and doing sleep restriction was to generate more sleep drive and in turn ensure sleep drive is more than arousal?

    #54506

    Chee2308
    ✓ Client

    Hello! I think you are overthinking things. Sleep is supposed to be simple, there is no need to complicate it further by relentlessly asking whether you should be doing x,y,z. Just set a 6 hour sleep window at pretty consistent hours and let your body do the rest. While acknowledging that you might not fall sleep quickly every night and that’s okay! You might have to do SR or you could just rest quietly in bed. Either way is fine. Daniel also has a book called Set it and Forget it, which is basically saying the same thing. Try not to get caught up in the finer details or believe you have to do everything perfectly to succeed because the reality about sleep isn’t like that. Regularity is the key to pretty consistent nights. Good luck.

    #54560

    Scott
    Mentor

    @grangers,

    Clock watching for the start of your sleep window has the potential to create some anxiety but it’s how we respond (or don’t respond) to the ruminating thoughts that causes sleep to become more difficult. I wonder if you stop watching the time 1-2 hours before your sleep window starts and just go to bed when you’re sleepy would be beneficial for you? Sleep drive is designed as you mentioned but if you begin to struggle with that arousal and anxiousness, then that can lead to sleep disruptions. How do you react when anxious thoughts about your sleep arrive, especially at bedtime? Are you trying to avoid them or force them to go away?

    Scott J

    The content of this post is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied.
    #60102

    Grangers
    ✘ Not a client

    Hi folks sorry been away for a bit so:

    am i going to bed at the start of a sleep window even if im not sleepy and just lying there in bed until i do fall asleep

    Or am i setting a sleep window and only going to bed when sleepy after it starts (sometimes fall asleep on the couch with this one for an hour)

    Or am i abandoning a sleep window start time and only going to bed when sleepy and setting a consistent wake time. Even if abandoning the start time means i spending excessive amount of time in bed.

    Also can i go to bed and watch tv or something until i feel sleepy to fall alseep?

    So by doing sleep restriction does this not build sleep drive even though you are not treating it as an effort?

    Thanks guys

    #60107

    Chee2308
    ✓ Client

    If sleep wasn’t the main consideration, how would you choose?

    #60114

    Grangers
    ✘ Not a client

    Probably go to bed when i thought i should or when its maybe a good idea ie getting up for work at 6 or 7 whether i was sleepy or not. Thing is i never feel sleepy now i could stay up all night for several days if it wasnt for the stingy eyes after a certain time at night. Do you suggest pick a sleep window and go to bed at that time or after that time whether sleepy or not and get up roughly the same time. If i stayed up til i felt sleepy it could be never or 6am in the morning then up again after an hour. I dont get any recovery sleep its the same story every night. I get sleep drive cant be controlled and only wakefullness produces sleep. I get you cant force yourself to sleep. My concern of going to bed at roughly the same time is my sleep drive not being high enough for sleep at that point. Every sleep coach ive watched videos on suggests only going to bed when feeling sleepy not when the clock tells you to go. Doesnt matter how long im up i never feel really sleepy even the rare occassion when i do get sleep it only lasts for about 2 hours of light sleep then im up for the rest of the night wide awake

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