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Hi lukekwinarko, you might want to check out Martin’s sleep restriction tips and his emails and podcasts. I think part of the program involves going to bed at a certain time and getting up at a certain time, regardless how well you slept. But I would refer you to his materials.
Beyond the specific program he outlines, as a general longterm rule, I have found that keeping track of the time hasn’t worked that well. Of course if you have time-sensitive obligations, e.g. having to get to work at a certain time, you cannot ignore the clock. But to the extent possible, I have found that I did better when i stopped calculating.
Actually the thing which disturbed my sleep the most was thinking about how my sleep was disturbed. And then thinking about it some more, and then trying to stop thinking about it. And realizing that made me think about it all the more. I still can get into this mindset, until I realize for the 10,000th time that it’s best just to acknowledge I am thinking about it and let it be. Which does not guarantee better sleep the next night, but it has been the best alternative over time.
Hi NikC14, it sounds like you are going through it right now. I should start off by saying I am not a medical professional. I think the longest I stayed awake was 60-70 hours at some point. There also have been times when I thought I was awake, eventually getting up, feeling like I had not slept at all, only to be told I was snoring periodically. As far as I can tell, the body does shut down to some extent, even if it is not restful sleep.
Perhaps more to the point, there were plenty of times when I wished I would die rather than continue with insomnia. This stemmed from my thoughts going haywire from exhaustion—and worse, buying into the thoughts, again from exhaustion.
Sleep meds can help short term, though doctors often will write a prescription and not want to address underlying emotional causes. And no medication will guarantee good sleep long term, and they can be dangerous if abused.
I hope you can stay with this site to check out Martin’s materials, and also to see that you are not alone. Any given morning, millions of people are hammered from poor sleep the night before. I dealt with insomnia for decades (doesn’t mean you will, had to work through early trauma, etc.), but even now, sometimes I don’t sleep all that great. It happens, and it can continue on into a nasty stretch when my brain gets scrambled and I forget all I have learned about letting thoughts just be, instead of buying into them.
It is easy to buy into the idea that I haven’t slept well night after night, therefore I am condemned to a lifetime like this. ……even though it isn’t true.
Hi Kmm, first, it’s a good idea to check through this site. Please do not think that because no one has responded to your specific post, that no one cares. Rather, you can see there are a lot of posts to reply to. Any given night, millions of people are not sleeping well. So you’re not alone by a long shot.
It sounds like you have identified some reasons for not sleeping well. Working on a master’s thesis is enough to stress anybody out. Add to that relationship issues. Then meds.
Re the meds, pharmacist are the best source for info on side effects. Many drugs contribute to insomnia, so sometimes you have to balance the benefit of the drug given such an unpleasant side effect. Also know that there is no drug which will guarantee good, long term sleep. If there were, you would see people lined up for blocks.
I think the biggest plus of this site is Martin’s emphasis on how thoughts enter the picture. The thesis, or relationship trouble, even the insomnia itself, doesn’t automatically lead to the loss of hope you describe. The culprit is the recurring thought about what insomnia means–rather, what you think it means. I know when I would be hammered from lack of sleep, my mind would drift to despair, along the lines of “this is hopeless,” “I wish I was dead,” “maybe I should kill myself,” etc. Powerful thoughts that seem true because they’re so powerful.
But they are not true. Instead, they are just thoughts drifting through your head, and they are easy to latch onto and believe when you’re too tired to think straight. With considerable practice, I was able to recognize the enormous difference between:
1. It’s hopeless, I should just die; and
2. I’m having the thought that it’s hopeless, I should just die.Prefacing with “I’m having the thought that…” can provide some distance, so you can observe your thoughts rather than automatically buy into them.
Like I said, you are not alone. Stay with us.
Hi Shlokless, I think you can benefit from CBT-I. And it looks like you are already making progress, even if it may not seem that way.
You have recognized a source of situational insomnia, namely medical school exams. And that regardless of source, sleep anxiety can move in and carry insomnia forward on its own.
For me, the key has been to step back and note my thoughts about insomnia, e.g. having thoughts about why can’t I sleep, I can’t deal with this, etc. Basically thoughts recurring—and recognizing they are just thoughts drifting through my head, like clouds through the sky.
It’s harder when you are tired, and it seems like you become your thoughts. But this is an illusion, albeit sometimes a powerful one.
Final point: trying hard to sleep doesn’t work. No doubt you have worked hard to get as far as you are, but this is one area where letting go is key. Yes, easier said than done, but for what it’s worth, I think you are going to make it through this.
Take care, you are not alone.
Hi Claudia22, I am sorry you are going through this. You write that you “always think that no one and nothing will ever help me.” That is not true, but millions of us can relate: when you are hammered from lack of sleep, powerful (but false) thoughts can rage through your head.
It sounds like you are dealing with some difficult physical health problems. That is certainly the start of situational insomnia–an actual event or condition that is tough to deal with. But it’s the emotions that take and run with it.
“Sometimes I cannot control my emotions at night”…… a few things are certain, and one is that you can forget about controlling your emotions. Take the anger you describe. Sure, you don’t want to act out on anger via eg. a road rage incident, but as for preventing yourself from being angry, forget it. I think you have a better shot at trying to step back and watch the anger and other emotions. I know, easier said than done, when you are swirling in them and you’re exhausted. But it’s the way to let your emotions be, whatever they are, so your body doesn’t have to carry them.
Martin’s course, and podcasts/emails address this more fully. I hope you will stay with this site and come to realize that you are not alone in this. Even when it feels that way.
Hi MCODad, have you considered sleep apnea? A sleep medicine doctor can diagnose it with a sleep study. Essentially it measures how many times per hour your breathing is impaired. Usually this means the patient is not sleeping well. Even if you are feeling rested in the morning, the breathing interruptions can lead to gasping and snoring.
A CPAP takes some getting used to. But if it helps keep your breathing steady, you could sleep with your wife again, so that’s a plus.
Excess weight can contribute to snoring, but even slim people can develop sleep apnea, so it might be worth checking out. I think most insurance plans cover sleep studies…..if you have been to an airport lately, you might have noticed lots of people carrying small square gray briefcases. They are CPAPs.
Hi Purllearyes, wow, a lot going on. You have certainly given this a lot of thought.
I wonder if a sleep study would at least provide some neurological evidence of what is going on when you are asleep—or as you describe it, at least unconscious. I know you don’t think it’s apnea. But a sleep study would establish that definitively one way or the other.
You mention that you have tried sleep schedules. But as you say, your body goes into “emergency mode” to get real sleep after feeling unrested for several days. It might be worth exploring Martin’s plan for sleep restriction. I think he addresses what you are going through.
I know from experience that depression leads to insomnia, usually early morning awakening. Even if you are unconscious, obviously you are not getting restful sleep. That plus the chronic anxiety since childhood. If it is like what I experienced, it kind of perpetuates itself: an unpleasant memory can pop in your head and you can feel like you are at its mercy.
All those thoughts trying to figure out what is wrong are certainly understandable. But in my own struggle, I found that while it helped to catalog what might be causing insomnia, I could never think my way out of it. So the thoughts for me were kind of a mixed blessing. What I found most helpful was being able to step back from my thoughts and observe them from a bit of a distance. This includes unpleasant memories popping into my head.
And yes, I know that stepping back and observing is hard when you are really blitzed. It can seem like everything you are thinking has to be true because well, it feels that way. Even though it is just the insomnia talking.
Take care, you are not alone in this.
Hi NikC14, it sounds like you are really going through it big time.
For starters, I hope you are not shy about calling the Crisis Line. I volunteered there a few years ago, and we often got repeat callers who needed a boost to get through rough spots. I have heard there is now a national number –988– in the USA, anyway. But if you google Crisis Line, you will get through. You may also live where dialing 211 will put you in touch with community resources.
I totally relate to the constant ruminating thoughts. They are an understandable result from not sleeping: your brain can really go haywire. And the thoughts then contribute to future insomnia, a nasty circle. So what to do?
For me, mindfulness and prayer have been the key, the first to slow down and watch the thoughts rather than living them and buying into them; the second for the strength to get through the worst nanoseconds which do not last but seem like they will at the time.
I disagree with people who don’t believe in prayer, though I can understand why they don’t. As for mindfulness, it is sort of a fad right now but has been around for centuries. A couple of free sites: palousemindfulness.com and mindfulnessnorthwest.com
I know when you are really hammered from insomnia it is hard to see the difference between:
1. I’m having the thought that that this is going to last forever, that I should just give up; and
2. This is going to last forever. I am going to give up. —– The difference is huge.
I hope you stay with this site and check out Martin’s materials. The way we think about insomnia can really give it a life of its own, or we can step back and view it more dispassionately, to the point it can lose its grip on us. Not that we can all sleep great every night, but it becomes more of a casual, sometime nuisance rather than a monster.
Hi Chasingsleep, I think you have an insight in the name you have chosen. Chasing sleep indeed. I totally relate to wanting to track it down, grab it and hold onto it, and not wanting it to get away. And then after you have been up all day, wanting it to be there on call, exactly when you want.
But it seems to have a mind of its own.
I read that the inventor Thomas Edison would sleep when he was sleepy, regardless what time day or night. Then stay up while he was alert, again regardless of the time. I think that guitarist Keith Richards does the same, or at least did when he was younger. But both were self-employed and did not have to adhere to a set schedule. I am presuming that like most people, you have to be at work at a certain time.
Still, perhaps you still have some flexibility. Do you have a chance to nap during the day, if only just to close your eyes in a quiet spot for five minutes, regardless whether you fall asleep?
How do you feel about letting yourself sleep when you feel sleepy at 8/9pm? If this means you wake up at say 3am instead of your customary 6am, is that a bad thing if you feel rested?You might want to check out Martin’s materials about sleep restriction as well.
Sleep is weird. I do know that trying to control it doesn’t work all that well. And do I know how badly we want to sometimes!
Hi Carli, I am 71. I would not put too much into aging and sleep needs. Perhaps there are neurological theories, and I am not a medical professional. I do know that counting hours has never worked all that well for me. Instead, when I wake up, I stretch and do my best to just focus on the moment, instead of checking the clock and calculating.
And after stretching, sometimes I decide that yeah, I think I’ll stay up. Other times, I think that going back to sleep would be nice. And if I go back to bed and fall asleep, great, If I don’t fall asleep, I just get up and figure I’ll sleep later–a nap, etc.
Even when retired, though, there are some days where there isn’t going to be time for a nap. Or I might try to take a nap and can’t fall asleep. And then it is easy to start fretting about whether the chronic insomnia is coming back, and how for how long, and I can’t deal with this anymore, etc. etc. You know, the panic train starts rolling: where is it going, will it ever stop….
And when I can step back and watch the train just roll away, things slow down and sleep returns in its natural course. Sometimes easier said than done, I know; that train can really roar and get scary.
So again, I would not assume that since I am 70, my sleep is pretty much shot from here on out. It isn’t.
HI azeke, I am a man so I cannot speak directly to postpartum issues. I think we would have a reduced population if men had to share birthing duties with women, but that’s another story.
I would think that the stress of a new baby would be a classic case of situational insomnia, and there might be physical causes I am not aware of.
As for insomnia generally, it sounds like you are realizing that “forcing myself to try to sleep” is not going to work. And there is no sleep med which guarantees good sleep over the long term. If there were, there would be lines around the block. So what to do?
It comes down to thoughts—not trying to control or stop them–we can’t— but rather just being aware of them. Why? Because the alternative is to let thoughts just toss you around in the sea, lurching this way and that.
Mindfulness is a fad right now. The fad will fade away, but the value of mindfulness will remain. Suggest palousemindfulness.com and mindfulnessnorthwest.com as two examples of free sites to check out. This or that sub-topic or presenter can resonate with different people, so try not to blow it off if the first thing you see seems too “out there.” Again, the alternative is just to flounder in the stream of whatever pops into your head.
All I can tell you is that mindfulness and prayer were the best tools I had over many years of insomnia (not that yours will be necessarily long-term; I had massive childhood trauma to work through).
It is perfectly okay to just acknowledge the truth, whatever it is, perhaps that “I am having the thought that I am really wiped out and feeling like I can’t deal with this baby.” That is light years different than “I am really wiped out, and I can’t deal with this baby.” If you are really hammered from insomnia right now, the difference might elude you. But it is there.
Take care. While not all of us can directly relate to birthing and postpartum issues, all of us have something going on, and know that insomnia is tough. But it is not all-powerful, though sometimes it seems that way because you’re so tired you can’t think straight.
Finally, if you go off your meds, be sure to consult with a professional. I did various sleep meds for years, and found that pharmacists were the most knowledgeable and available experts.
Hi Roberta, and Merry Christmas / Happy Holidays…
I can’t speak to weaving sleep restrictions in while taking meds. I suggest you consult with Martin on that, and with a pharmacist regarding the half-life of whatever meds you are taking, ie. the proper way to taper off the meds, if you decide to go off them. As you have already discovered, they are not a cure-all.
As for watching your thoughts, it does take practice. Reading about it; watching videos and listening to podcasts about it; talking about it with knowledgeable, caring people–all good. But you still do have to practice. And it is something you can do while taking or tapering off meds; or doing sleep restrictions or whatever. The thoughts never stop. They are zipping through our heads. We can choose to practice observing them, rather than just getting buffeted about like a dinghy slamming into a dock in a storm.
Finally, I have noticed that even if the thoughts popping into my head are not particularly pleasant, better to step back and view them somewhat dispassionately rather than just getting swept away in hopelessness.
Take care, it gets better.
Hi Roberta, it sounds like you are making some progress. I realize that might sound incongruous: you’re having trouble sleeping, so how is that progress?
But you have recognized the difference between general life stresses, family hassles, etc. (aka situational insomnia) and sleep anxiety (worrying about sleeping, regardless of external life events). And you have learned that no sleep med provides a permanent solution. And that situational insomnia can eventually resolve to some point, maybe just acceptance that this or that family member is difficult to deal with.
But what are you supposed to do about worrying about sleep itself?
It comes down to thoughts, whether you can observe them without necessarily diving in and getting swamped by them. And Martin’s program could be the way to go for you.
Part of the thought mess for me was (and still is, sometimes) about goals. It’s one thing to have a goal like completing a course of study, or building a house, or doing research to make a sensible purchase. Take building a house. You need to know about soil, concrete, how to use tools, electrical components, and when to hire professionals for specific tasks.
None of that works with sleep. Barring sleep apnea which is detectable via sleep study, sleep just happens. You can’t map out a plan. You can’t make sleep a goal. This can be hard to remember when your mind is scrambled from lack of sleep.
No one sleeps great every night. When I have a rough night, maybe a few in a row, I try to get to a place where I can say:
—–I’m having the thought that I am anxious about sleeping, that I am getting frantic and despairing about it. I’m having the thought over and over that my life is a disaster;
as opposed to:
—–I am frantic about not being able to sleep. I am despairing about it. My life is a disaster.
Believe me, I know it can be hard to see the difference when you are really blitzed from not sleeping. And if you feel like giving up, try to be easy on yourself. You are not alone in this.
Hi w.thorne, I can briefly relate my story about generalized anxiety disorder, and maybe part of it fits into what you are going through.
I got a formal diagnosis of GAD and did psychotherapy for many years. (The trend now is more toward cognitive behavioral therapy, like Martin offers–shorter term, more specific–I had repressed memories and early childhood trauma, so a different path)
My insomnia sometimes was easily connected to present stressful situations, the type anybody goes through now and then, e.g. big job interview tomorrow morning. But mostly it was due to severe depression, a classic reason for early morning awakening. You refer to additionally now having trouble falling asleep. Not sure, but this could be anxiety about whether you will fall asleep, a classic circular mess because nobody can fall asleep when anxious, even if you’re tired.
I hope you will stay with this site and check out Martin’s emails/podcasts, and maybe his course will be right for you as well. There are a lot of us out here who can relate to what you are going through.
Hi Kate17, while none of our paths are identical, ours seem to overlap. I was hospitalized for severe depression and was on a whole slew of medications. I definitely needed meds to get stabilized. I had to learn how my past had led to where I was (a long road, not necessarily the case for you—early childhood trauma, etc etc.). Then I had to learn how to face present situations (and it sounds like you’ve gotten slammed with a lot of these).
But I found that no med could guarantee good sleep. You build up a tolerance to sleep meds—they might still have value as this or that antidepressant, but no sleep guarantee.
As you have discovered, sleep sort of comes on its own, unplanned, like when you fall asleep on the couch. Believe me, I know it’s easier said than done, but to the extent that you can stop trying, sleep will happen.
I still have lousy sleep nights sometimes. When it happens, I get up rather than toss around, then I try to ….how to put it,…watch my mind, i.e. try to observe what thoughts are swirling around in there. I try to step back and observe, rather than swirl with them. It might be that there is some present day situation which is bugging me, and it sounds like you have had a lot of those lately with mom and work conflicts, and death/near death. And sometimes it might be some old stuff, like getting bullied at work 30+ years ago, who knows why it popped up in my head last night. But if I can observe it relatively dispassionately, rather than re-live the misery, I find it can pass, like clouds drifting by. The same goes for thoughts popping into my head during the day.
I wish I could give you a concise answer, but all I can say in conclusion is try to be gentle with yourself. And check out Martin’s material on this site, including emails and podcasts. I went through traditional Freudian psychotherapy for many years, and because of early trauma, I think I had to make that long exploration. But most people don’t, and I think the cognitive behavioral therapy which Martin describes can help in a lot less time.
Take care, you are not alone in this.
P.S.–Suggest check with pharmacists for sound, no-cost advice on meds. Best not to tweak the dosages on your own, if you have been doing this a bit.
