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Hi, Up all Nite, I am encouraged by your last sentence. You have checked out Martin’s program and now realize it is about putting it into practice.
Talking about insomnia, reading about it, watching videos, checking the various posts on this site—all these can be helpful. But as you say, from there it comes down to practice. Setting aside some time to do it, even when you don’t feel like it.
Practicing the CBT techniques is good. But this doesn’t mean you practice sleep itself. No doubt you have discovered that trying to sleep doesn’t work. Martin touches on this point throughout his videos.
I think you make another good point about stressful events leading to insomnia, then as the event subsides, the insomnia has taken on a life of its own. Sleep anxiety. Fair to say that just about all of us on this site can relate to this. Easier said than done–believe me, I know—but to the extent that you can accept that you cannot sleep at this moment, it can become more tolerable. This does not mean you are resigning yourself to a lifetime of insomnia.
Take care.
Hi, Sleepless in WV, it sounds like you are really going through the mill right now. I would think most of us would have situational insomnia going through so many traumatic experiences. I know that when I experienced severe trauma earlier in life, I could not have made it through without mental/emotional health treatment, any more than I could have healed on my own when I broke my leg completely in two.
I also strongly believe in prayer, but I don’t think God is the least bit put out when we seek such treatment. He does not expect us to just sort of pray our way out of it. A number of conservative Christian pastors have had serious mental health issues because they have thought that seeking help was a sign of weak faith. It isn’t.
Panic attacks are awful. Been there. There are some prescription meds which can help. This alone would be a reason to seek out a psychiatrist, i.e. an M.D. who is authorized to prescribe.
As for chronic insomnia (insomnia hanging around even after dealing with trauma), it can definitely take on a life of its own. I know from long experience that there is no one med. which cures it; if there were, people would be lined up for miles.
Not a snap cure or anything, but the best help I have gotten (after the mental health treatment for specific trauma) has been from practicing mindfulness. I know it is kind of a fad right now, but it has been around for about 3,000 years. I have been using it to deal with the Covid mess and political polarization you refer to. A couple of free websites below.
And I think Martin’s course is really focused on how our thoughts can work against us if we don’t realize it. As you point out, we can spend too much time in our heads. And not all social media is garbage, but a lot of it does smell pretty bad. Easy to go down a rabbit hole and think there is no hope anymore.
mindfulnessnorthwest.com
palousemindfulness.comAlso, I used to volunteer at the Crisis Line. It is a good resource. When I worked there, the phone system for some reason directed everybody to us here in Seattle. But we have a nationwide directory which can steer you to resources in your community.
You are not alone.
Hi Blackbird, my heart goes out to you re the long Covid.
This is just a guess, but I have heard of “long-haulers” being dismissed as malingerers, that actually you are not doing that badly and should just “get over it,” similar to people suffering from Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. The closest I have come to experiencing anything like that is dealing with child abuse many years ago, and having to realize that most people who have not dealt with it cannot understand it. And that sometimes they can dismiss it as something you ought to just get over.
If I am guessing right here, maybe at least part of your current insomnia pattern stems from understandable disappointment or frustration or anger at how people react to you. From my own struggles with insomnia, I know that for me it gets worse if I find myself upset at other people’s attitudes and behavior. Hard to remember that we cannot control that.
I certainly hope that as scientists learn more about Covid, they can develop a cure for Long Covid in particular.
Hi Cookie/Rosemarie, sorry to hear about all the stress going on.
Not that any source of stress has to be “legitimate,” but divorce and Covid and GI issues are certainly understandable reasons for not sleeping. And once insomnia moves in, it can make itself at home regardless of external stresses. Sleep anxiety is a bear.
And as you have discovered, sleep meds are not a permanent solution. If they were, people would be lined up for miles at the pharmacy. And sleep hygiene, while a good thing, is not enough for those of us with big time, chronic insomnia.
So what is? With your motivation, maybe Martin’s course is the way for you.
Maybe another, or in addition to, is to think of other things in life where trying harder does not work. If you are a baseball fan, you know that skilled batters can go into a slump. They know they can hit, done it for years, now all of a sudden they can’t. And the more they ruminate about it, the worse it gets: omg, I have got to get a hit, this can’t go on, what if I get cut from the team, what am I going to do, etc. etc.?
Of course the key is to relax, but easier said than done, right?
Despite the overhype, trendy stuff you hear, mindfulness has helped me. And when I find that I am on another run of bad sleep–and worrying about it and of course continuing to sleep poorly—I eventually realize that I have gotten away from it. A couple of free sites: mindfulnessnorthwest.com and palousemindfulness.com You will have to scroll through and see which sections work for you.
You are not alone.
Hi, danamelinda, I don’t know the exact answer to your question. I would suggest exploring Martin’s website in detail; I am quite certain that he addresses this.
fwiw, I have sometimes been asleep for 7 or so hours but wake up unrefreshed, other times for 5 hours but wake up refreshed. On the other hand, my wife does not have sleep issues, but if she gets less than 8-9, she feels tired throughout the day. Go figure.
Hi, DigitatlZombie (great name!):
I got both doses and had no problems with nausea, insomnia, etc. I am 69 years old, My shoulder was a little sore for a few hours, not a big deal. (My minor arthritis is more of an issue, but that is not related to the vaccine.)
I have dealt with insomnia for a long time. It has gotten the better of me on occasion when I have had a run of poor sleep and it starts getting into my head. You know, anxiety about omg, am I ever going to sleep well again, etc. Easy to fall into when you are exhausted and your thoughts start going haywire.
And when I get into this mindset, I can get anxious about anything interfering with sleep. Name it: politics, family issues, money, ……and you can certainly add Covid vaccine issues in there.
True, some people don’t feel great for a couple days after the second dose. And if that happens to you, I am guessing you might not sleep great for a couple of nights. And if this should happen, try to notice if you are getting into the freak-out mindset described above.
When I do, I try to frame it like this:1. “I’m having the thought that I am not going to sleep well tonight and maybe not for a long time, I cannot handle this.”
as opposed to
2. “I am not going to sleep well tonight and maybe not for a long time, I cannot handle this.”
I doubt that the vaccine will directly cause any insomnia. Anxiety about the vaccine doing so—or anxiety about anything—can definitely cause insomnia.
Just the other day, Martin put out an email about how we can easily obsess about sleep/insomnia. Suggest you contact him to get copied (sorry, I don’t have the tech know-how to forward, if that is even possible).
I admire your willingness to step up and get vaccinated. My brother-in-law likely would still be alive if more people in the community had taken more precautions.
Hi Caty,
I have had insomnia for over 40 years—but Stop, this does not mean you will. Nor does it mean every night. It also does not mean that all days of good sleep the night before were great; and it does not mean that all days of poor sleep the night before were miserable.
So what am I getting at? It is easy, sort of magnetic really, to fall into the trap of thinking that how I sleep dictates whether I can enjoy life. Because we want to sleep well so badly.
If I sound all-knowing and serene, no it’s not like that. I have been frantic for sleep, thought seriously about suicide, and I still have rocky times. Because lack of sleep can get the better of you. When I do sleep poorly, I try to remind myself that okay, today I might tend to get irritable, have lots of anxious thoughts, maybe even thoughts that I wish I were dead, thoughts that I cannot handle this anymore. And in my better moments, I acknowledge and remember that these are just thoughts.
As in:
1. “I’m having the thought that (I am miserable / I cannot live like this anymore).” As opposed to:2. I am miserable. I cannot live like this anymore.
The difference between 1 and 2 is observing your thoughts rather than living inside them. I know that the concept of mindfulness is all trendy, but if you check it out enough, you can get beyond the fluff and see why it has been around for about 3,000 years. A couple of good, free websites (and even here, you’ll have to look around to see which parts resonate for you): mindfulnessnorthwest.com and palousemindfulness.com
And I would definitely check out Martin’s videos. He addresses really all the issues that pop up for us, including sleep anxiety, which is the biggest one for me–and I am guessing, for you.
While I don’t sleep great every night (who does?), I have generally gotten to the point where when I wake up in the middle of the night, I can say that I would definitely prefer to get more sleep but hey, if I don’t, I have gotten through this every time before. And actually mean this. And usually I can get back to sleep. When I do have a run of bad sleep, I try not to freak out about it because as you know, that doesn’t work too well, right?
Well, I have gone on quite a bit here. But know you are not alone. It has gotten better for me, and it will for you, too.
Hi kash, sorry to hear you are having a tough time.
I understand you have completed a CBT program. I assume you learned some exercises and techniques. Are you still doing them? Definitely hard to stick with a program when you are so tir whated, but still necessary.
For what it’s worth, when I am dragging through a day after poor sleep, and I find myself ruminating about how tired I am, how I wonder if I will ever sleep well again, etc., I try to focus on the present moment, acknowledging it is unpleasant. I concentrate (and pray, if you believe in it) on just living this moment and that yes, I can handle this moment. I cannot handle maybe years ahead, but I don’t have to–instead, just this moment.
I know this can sound simplistic. But I do find that all the moments afterward are not all filled with thoughts about sleep, or how tired I am. For example, I did not sleep well last night and yes, I had some unpleasant moments thinking about that. But right now I am focusing on typing this note to you, and thinking about what I am going to write.
And tonight I will probably have thoughts about how well I will sleep. As best I can, I will just let them drift through my mind, like clouds passing by until they are out of sight. Sure, I hope sleep well, but if I don’t, I have dealt with that before. And I know that obsessing about it doesn’t work very well.
If you have not done so, check out Martin’s videos on this site.
Take care, and know you are not alone.
Hi Sunshine 2, I am not sure what your question is, but I will hazard a guess that it’s about the relationship between mindfulness and sleepinesss. Perhaps you are asking how can someone who is very tuned in to the present become sleepy.
Maybe an analogy would be hunger. If you do not eat, you will eventually get hungry, and will get hungrier as time passes. Just as your body tells you it needs food, it will tell you it needs sleep.
One difference is that the body cannot supply food to itself. You have to put food into it. On the other hand, sleep comes naturally. If you go without sleep long enough, you will get sleepy. Not just tired (there is a difference), but sleepy. And you will fall asleep. What keeps us from falling asleep and staying asleep long enough is that our minds wander in and get in the way. Being aware of this phenomenon is a big part of mindfulness meditation.
A couple of free mindfulness sites: mindfulnessnorthwest.com palousemindfulness.com
As for how this relates to sleep and our behavior, suggest you check out Martin’s videos and also his comments in this forum.
Hi, babesjen24, I think for starters it might help to see if there is anything in your life which is stressing you out, e.g. stuff at work, looking for work, school, Covid, family hassles, stress over politics, you name it.
If you go through the life situations and find yourself still not sleeping, even if everything in your life is going okay, know that you are not alone when you say your mind won’t shut off. If you stay with the forum and check out Martin’s videos, you will learn that’s what our minds do. And the videos, his course and assorted comments here will describe how rather than trying to turn off our minds, or force them to think just certain thoughts, it is more about slowing down and watching the mind—and not taking it too seriously, especially when you’re tired and all sorts of weird thoughts can run through there.
One of the mind’s least helpful shenanigans is sleep anxiety—worrying about not sleeping, so of course not sleeping, and then worrying some more about it.
Finally, know that nobody sleeps great every night. Just this week, I slept poorly one night, who knows why, just did….and then the next night, same thing. And I found myself freaking out a little, as in omg, here we go again, am I going to go back into not sleeping again, all those years lost, so tired then and here I am again, I will never get over this, etc etc.
Fortunately, I was able to summon up my long experience with this stuff and realize that it was just my mind going bonkers again, and realize that my body will eventually sleep, the same way it eventually gets hungry. Sometimes easier said than done, for sure!
btw, I had chronic insomnia for many years, but this does not mean you will, too. I had long term emotional issues to deal with. In fact, maybe this is one thought to catch: if you learn that somebody else has had sleep problems for a long time, your mind might pop up with “oh no, I am stuck here for who knows how long, how am I going to function, what is the point of all this,…….like I said, the mind can go anywhere. Sometimes it provides useful insights or remembers helpful information; other times, it just presents junk, which hopefully you can let just drift through, like a piece of a branch floating down the river.
Mindfulness is sort of trendy right now, but it’s been around for 3,000 years or so. It has helped me more than any other remedy. Some people benefit more from a structured course of study, so again you might want to check out Martin’s program. As for mindfulness, a couple of good sites: palousemindfulness.com and mindfulness northwest.com
Take care.
Hi, yogagirl1, sorry to hear you are having a tough time. It seems that there are a number of ways to be essentially a casualty of Covid, even if you don’t get the virus itself.
The fact that you use the term “sleep anxiety” leads me to think that you have already identified the underlying problem—not necessarily always anxious about a particular problem in your life, e.g. stress at work, being unemployed, etc., even though difficult life situations certainly lead to interrupted sleep. Rather you have pinpointed your issue as sleep anxiety–
that irrespective of present personal life difficulties, you are anxious about sleep itself.First off, congratulations, and I am not being facetious here. It took me years to figure out that insomnia can perpetuate itself, beyond present circumstances. (This doesn’t mean you will have insomnia for years; I had severe mental health issues I had to work through.)
So, sleep anxiety. I agree with Chee Hiung Yong that acceptance is an important step. It is a step you arrive at after you do all the sleep hygiene tips and still can’t sleep. But it is definitely hard accepting something so unpleasant.
And if there was a certain mantra or whatever, or a guaranteed pharmaceutical, then insomnia would be cured, pretty much like smallpox. So what to do?
Maybe a simple example will help……The night before last, I woke up early, not rested, couldn’t get back to sleep after laying there for 20 minutes or so. So I got up, figuring that I have gone through thousands of days like this (doesn’t mean you will at all–see above); and that I had gotten through 100% of them. I looked at what I had to try to do that day, decided to give that a shot, and let go of everything else that could wait.
”
And sure enough, I was tired during the day. I acknowledged that “I’m tired.” That’s all. Doesn’t have to mean “I’m tired and I’ll never get over this, my life is a disaster,” etc.And at bedtime last night, I said to myself, you know what, I am tired and I hope I sleep better tonight, but if I don’t I will be okay, not great but okay. It turns out I did sleep better last night, but sometimes in this situation I do not. And I try to keep the same attitude for the next night—and every night, really, regardless how I sleep. (If it goes on for several nights, I do take a prescription sleep aid to try to get back on track physiologically, but knowing that no drug will keep working every night, just a temporary fix, maybe.)
This is longer than I intended, but bottom line is to know that millions of us struggle with sleep anxiety at times. And things do get better…..especially when we can put this damn virus behind us, for starters!
Take care.
Hi Marvin, sorry to hear you are having such a tough time.
I have sleep apnea and use a CPAP. I also had a number of other reasons for insomnia. I suspect you have figured out that worries about Covid, doom scrolling and late-night screen time perpetuate insomnia. So I will just address the CPAP and your work schedule.
Sleep coaches work with sleep medicine physicians and specialize in using CPAPs. Medical equipment supply stores also have people who are familiar with the various models of machines, hoses, filters, etc. It may take some digging, but I am confident you will find someone knowledgeable. Performance Home Medical, located at least in Washington State, is a good source and may be able to refer you to someone or some company in your area.
I also used to work nights, which I assume you have to do at least some of the time as a security officer. There is no getting around the circadian rhythm issue, i.e. that we all kind of fade around 4:00 am. But if that’s your shift, the way to make the best of it is still set up a regular sleep schedule. I asked other night workers and found the following worked best for me: get off work 8:30 a.m.; stay up, doing whatever until noon (the way day shift workers don’t go to bed right after work, either); sleep about noon–6:00 p.m., go to work later that evening.
Not saying this is an absolute blueprint, it just worked fairly well for me.
Final point is about sleep anxiety, freaking out when you can’t sleep. Man, I have been there. There are a few things where trying harder does not help, including getting to sleep.
I typically wake up a couple of times during the night. I have thoughts that I won’t be able to get back to sleep. I let the thoughts just drift on by, telling myself that I would rather get back to sleep, but you know what, I have had thousands of nights where I could not, and I made it through the next day, as in 100% of the time. (I am not saying you will have many years of insomnia; I had huge, long term emotional problems to work through.)
Take care, Marvin. I really believe you will get through this.
Hi hunter47,
I hope she will consider looking over this website. She will discover she is not alone, and Martin has some good videos to check out. This includes his description of his CBT course.
Re drugs and side effects, it is best to check with a medical professional—especially pharmacists. Many physicians, even sleep medicine docs, just don’t know as much in this area. This is what pharmacists study and do all the time. People do experience different side effects, though over many years mine were not major.
There is no surefire drug cure for insomnia. If there were, we’d be lined up for miles to get it. All you can hope for is some temporary relief, without taking it so often you build up a resistance.
>>>>> “At her wit’s end” That describes very well what millions of us have gone through. And unfortunately, getting into the wit’s end rabbit hole makes it worse. Anxiety about sleep is understandable; it is also, in my opinion, the main reason the insomnia persists.
The following is not always easy to pull off, but it does at least change one’s attitude toward insomnia, even if it doesn’t guarantee a great sleep every night…..it is about our thoughts.
As an example, it turns out I did not sleep all that well last night. Beats me why not, just didn’t. And before I realized what I was up to, I started the old, familiar ruminating about why didn’t I sleep well, what if I don’t tonight and the night after that, and I wonder if this means I am going to have a huge relapse. And I am so sick of this, my life is veering sideways again, what’s the use. Etc. etc. etc.
And when I catch myself deep in this junk (and sometimes it takes a while to catch myself), I remember not to take my thoughts all that seriously. Especially when I haven’t slept well, all sorts of weird sh-t goes flying through my head. One analogy I use is that my thoughts are on twigs or branches that are floating down the river. I can just watch them drift by, without jumping into the river.
This is a standard type of analogy that pops up in discussions about mindfulness, which I have found works better with practice. Actually doing it, not just reading or talking about it. A couple of good, free websites (and I don’t work for either outfit): palousemindfulness.com and mindfulnessnorthwest.com
Please tell her a lot of people care about what she is going through. And it does not have to be a hopeless dead end at all, even though it can definitely seem that way when you’re exhausted.
Hi Chloe, I second the responses you have been getting.
I also have been dealing with insomnia for many years. If you can stick with the sleep hygiene and Martin’s suggestions, you will see some improvement.
My only caution is that this does not mean you will sleep wonderfully every night. For example, even though I have had a good run for several weeks, I have not slept well the last three nights. Maybe it’s the pandemic, which never goes away for any of us; or worrying about political gridlock, polarization; or maybe….who knows, it just happens.
And it can sometimes feel like oh no, here we go again, I’ll never get over this, I wish I was dead, etc etc. until I realize that it is the typical scattered, morose thinking that pops into my head when I haven’t been sleeping well. And I remember that trying extra hard to sleep and freaking out if I don’t pull if off–well, you know how that goes.
Maybe my go-to guide when I am in a sleep rut is to realize that all sorts of weird, dark thoughts are going through my head. And I can just watch them pass by without buying into them.
And sure, I hope I sleep better tonight. But if I don’t, I have handled the next day many times before and always got through, and it doesn’t mean I will have trouble sleeping all the time. The more i can let go of obsessing over sleep, the better off (I know, seems impossible not to obsess when you’re so exhausted, but that’s just a thought passing through).
I am not sure how to answer. I can say only that in my experience of “early morning insomnia” I have found it best to just get up rather than trying again and again to get back to sleep. Trying over and over can turn your bed into a battleground rather than a place of true rest.
Again, only in my experience, I also have found I can get up early, start yawning within a few minutes—but then I am wide awake once I get back into bed, because my anxiety about whether I’ll get back to sleep kicks in, so of course I can’t sleep.
It might be helpful to well, assume you will wake up in the middle of the night (suggest not checking the clock). And then you realize you are still tired, so you go back to bed. I know, easier said than done, but instead of thinking, omg, I have got to get back to sleep!, just say to yourself: you know what, I would rather get back to sleep, but if I don’t, I’ve been here before, it doesn’t mean the day has to be a disaster.
And when you still have some nights when you can’t get back to sleep, it’s not “oh no, this is back, it’s going to keep happening!, instead: what are you gonna do, nobody sleeps great every night.
If my advice sounds kind of breezy, it’s not intended to be. Just that I freaked out about not sleeping for the longest time, it doesn’t work and I would rather you don’t go down that road, too.
