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Grangers I am experiencing the identical problem you describe,I’m never sleepy ever plus at night I get like the lightest sleep you could imagine this has been going on now for about 2 years.
The only thing I can think of that helps is regardless of whatever quality of sleep I get at night always get up no matter the fatigue and get moving this seems to generate some sleep drive.
Thanks for replying to this old thread from 2022,lately I’ve changed my whole strategy and thinking on this problem from being so obsessive with the quality of the sleep because for at least 2 years now I’ve been sleep depriving myself in the hopes of having a sleep crash and resetting my circadian rhythm.
What I’ve found is that by staying awake for almost 24 hours has not resulted in deeper sleep but the opposite of being wired,thinking back to the 2 times I overcame this it was due to accepting the current situation and trying my best to get tired or prepared before the SW,the nights I slept better I woke extremely exhausted which is better for sleep drive where as trying to stay awake and survive on 2 or 3 hours sleep or even less led to alertness probably because if you get under 6 hours of any quality of sleep the body produces much more cortisol.
So what I’ve learned is that in order to build the sleep drive you must sleep or rest what ever quality you get will result in being more exhausted,the way to get even a decent quality rest or sleep is to really wind down before the sleep window then the challenge becomes waking the next morning.
It is true that no one can control their sleep aside from doing your best to quiet your mind through winding down taking it easy,if you work a physical labor job the most important strategy would be afterwards to be alone and simply relax because 8 hours what ever amount of constant going going is a lot of stimulation but at the same time it should create some amount of exhaustion but that’s the best approach to start winding down immediately after work.
The times I recovered from the low quality sleep I wasn’t implementing any sort of sleep window just going to bed for 8 hours waking exhausted and kept moving throughout the day. The whole struggle in the last 2 years of trying to create sleep drive I’m done with not saying I no longer have a sleep window because I do of 7 hours but dropping the whole concern obsessiveness with my sleep I’ve adopted now because the former was not working at all.
Not saying I’m recovered or anything but this is a better approach than obsessing and trying to create deeper sleep because the only thing we have control over is when we wake up so a realistic way of recalibrating your circadian rhythm would be to think of push someone on a swing as your rhythm,when your rhythm is out of wack you sleep poorly the same as if the person on a swing not getting a push or being pushed lightly is gonna slow down so the you need a harder push the way to do this is by waking up on time,its the only thing we have control over and that is my main focus getting up a little earlier and keep moving (exercise) and that’s all I can do so there’s no point in ruminating over if I’m getting tired enough.
Finally to state once again that getting up earlier moves our timing for sleepiness to set in earlier in the late evening.
Hello Meryll what you describe is exactly what I’ve been experiencing now for 2 years,I go to bed at like 1:30 am get up at 9:00 am and am totally exhausted some times can’t even get up at that time and oversleep.
I thought well if I’m waking up like this its obvious there isn’t much deep sleep happenin even if there was which I seriously doubt this is unacceptable still. I tried staying up much later to about 3 or even 4 in the morning than trying to get up at 9 literally impossible I would be in a haze and not get up,now I think going back to the original schedule of 1:30 to 9:00 and focus on just getting up on time because I’m stumped as far as what to do.
I never used to sleep this way before it was always closed my eyes maybe it could take a half hour or so to drift away into a deep sleep but always always it happened even if I were to stay up on the computer right before going to bed.
The absolute worst thing about this is its as if there’s no real help out there besides this forum because all the so called sleep experts in the medical community won’t try to figure out the problem or how it could be resolved,they just push sleeping pills.
Thanks Martin for your input so it seems that as far as the process of SR and sleep hygiene are going that I’m doing that correctly but it is true about catastrophizing over not getting the sleep I was getting before the insomnia, maybe just taking a step back and letting the process unfold will bring about the results I’m looking without putting any expectation on it.
Something interesting you mentioned that I already knew but made me think is how deep sleep occurs during the start of the sleep cycle but for I notice this isn’t the case as it takes at least an hour for me to fall into a semi deep cycle, its during the last few hours that my sleep seems to deepen which is also why I have such a hard time waking and so often stay sitting up in bed so its kinda like the opposite.
Thank you for replying Scott and yes I am happy about the improvement its encouraging but I’m not there yet.
Oh I’m definitely getting some deep sleep but I’m comparing how I slept before to now which is not as before my insomnia, I used to go to sleep at night immediately fall into a deep sleep and maybe awake once during the night but get back to a deep sleep once again or close to it.
Also I should mention that energy levels aren’t there as they were before my insomnia even though I am sleeping some what, my main question though is if someone is sleeping better but their sleep is still not back to where it was before will the continual practice of SR make it even more deep to the point of restoring the normal restful sleep.
Energy drinks are terrible for your health they constrict blood vessels activate the
sympathetic nervous system(Stress response) in the body so ya that is a pretty good to not sleep,a way better alternative that I used to take when I gave up Monster energy was Tangy Tangerine 2.0 this is full of essential vitamins and minerals also no crash is good for you the energy is real lasts way longer than energy drinks.I’ve been meditating for the last 10 years as I also have anxiety disorder do it extensively to bring down adrenaline in my body.
The regular wake up time is beginning to work for me now, I’m sleeping deeper than before but it has taken months of trial and error with that said my sleep is still not as restorative as it was before so now I will attempt to get up during my sleep window for an hour so this is where SC will come in to further assist in creating building the remaining sleep drive.
This is all basically advice that has been on Martin’s youtube channel.
I’m dealing with the same problem of getting hardly any deep sleep and very fragmented or shallow sleep with awakenings, the only thing I could think is to not settle for the light sleep and wake up for an hour during my sleep window to build further sleep drive the next day.
It takes a lot of wakefulness to snap out of a bad pattern of shallow sleep while at the same time you must get some sleep so its very delicate balance.
Hi Scott what happens if you’re tired enough to go to bed but only sleep shallowly and never reach the deeper stages and when you wake the next morning you’re exhausted for the entire day and the entire process just repeats itself with the tired feeling leading to more shallow sleep.
I guess the question is what to do about shallow sleep do you accept it because it is sleep just low quality or do you stay awake in the hopes of getting a deeper stage because this is the predicament I’m in at the moment and the stage of sleep never seems to go deeper because
during the day I’m exhausted never fully rested so its not the same situation as getting very little close to nothing but more the quality is not there.The reason for the tightness feeling in the chest or the feeling of someone standing on your chest is due to stress hormone being released into the blood stream from not sleeping this stresses the body and activates the fight or flight mechanism releasing adrenaline which causes muscles in the chest to contract giving the feeling of a tight chest.
This can also cause heart palpitations as well because the stress hormones travel to every organ in the body that’s why you can experience headaches,heart palps,tight chest etc because adrenaline has a different effect on every organ in the body.
The stress hormones will burn themselves out naturally but deep relaxation will speed up
the process because the adrenaline is a stress response because not sleeping stresses the body and can cause physical symptoms.The last thing someone needs is heart meds or beta blockers that’s what a doctor tried to give me when I had heart palps because of stress,managing stress and obviously getting more sleep would resolve this.
Everything you describe is what I’m going through,I never feel sleepy ever the half awake half asleep thing is how I am when in bed at night like my brain never can get to the stage 3 sleep
that I need.The only possible chance you could have at getting sleepy is setting up a sleep window of maybe 6 hours and getting up every morning at the time you’re supposed to,the most progress
I’ve found happens when you wake up when you least feel like it when you have to literally
drag yourself out of bed that has worked for me in the past its just so hard to execute and also don’t sit around in doors get outside have some movement it also worked well in building sleep drive and I sleep when I’m tired enough to.Like you I’m experiencing the same thing it feels as if I’m getting no deep sleep whatsoever and my mind is active all day and night its not like I’m worried about whats happening but I have an awareness that it is though.
I can’t really say I try to do much about it other than at night I stay up till 4:00 am or later simply because I’m not sleepy enough that is not a sleep effort in my opinion because I’m not planning on staying up till that time,so really I’m doing nothing about this problem yet it still persists.
Thank you for responding and yes that is all I think it could be lately though I have kind of adopted an attitude of passive acceptance this has resulted in being more tired during the day I take naps for 40 minutes at around 3:00 pm because I think it helps me to sleep better at night this could be a hindrance maybe not sure.
Its true that it feels like I’m getting stage 1 but I don’t really know for sure I say this because for much of the night I’m half awake half asleep there is probably some deeper sleep
because I’ve been told that I’m snoring its just upon awakening it feels like I haven’t slept at all.My sleep window now has been 4:00 am to 9:00 am because I go to bed when I feel close to sleepy don’t know if this is helping or going extending the time would be better and taking
what I’m getting wondering what your thoughts are on this.Finally if its my thoughts and behaviors that are making this problem stick for me then if I changed them to ones that don’t promote anxiety would a turnaround in my sleep be instant or a gradual change because it could be a case of I want to see results quicker.
