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@turtlestamp – yes, I too think your sleep window is way too large. I would try for 5,5 hours (Martin’s minimum), maybe even lower. This togehter with some acceptance and mindfulness, should do it.
Can you – or @anmareta – post a link to the webinar recording? I cannot join tomorrow, but would like to hear what they are saying. Thanks in advance.
How long is ur sleep windows? What u, @turtlestamp, is imho pure hyperarousal which comes (mostly) from anxiety. It will settle down sooner or later.
I too struggle with this damn sleep anxiety. Have decided to see it through and confront it wiht a sleep window of 5,5 h. Some people even go to 4 h, and if necessary, I will do that too. We must teach/show our brains that we can sleep and that not sleeping or only sleeping some hours is not a big deal. It is uncomfortable, but it is not the end of the world (my irrational belief is/was that not sleeping is an almost life-threatening disaster).
I hope it works. Acceptance, self-compassion and patience are key. Easier said than done, of course, but I don’t think there is another way.
@anmareta – thanks a lot.
I think that ur sleep window is 6,5 hours, isn’t it? Have ever worked with a shorter one? I have reports here who started with 4 hours althouth Martin recommends not going under 5,5 hours.
In the article I mentioned, Lois Maharg started with 4h45m.Btw, didn’t u say u are from Holland? Just asking because I am from Belgium – so we are some sort of neighbours or brothers in arms 🙂
@anmareta
Glad to hear that you are doing better. You are on the right track, go on.Anxiety is a liar. We need to learn to accept it. Resisting is what keeps us stuck. But as I said, knowing is one thing…
The book “At last a life” and the complementary one “At last a life and beyond” by Paul David summarize it perfectly, also the DARE approach is very good.
What do u do exactly right now with ur insomnia? CBT-I? ACT? Sleep restriction with stimulus control (getting out of bed)? Or “nothing”?
@Turtlestamp – yes, that is the name of the book. The book covers the whole topic of insomnia. The part on CBT-I she mentions in the article is the most interesting part.
I know hat accepting, not battling is the way to go. But after all those years, I wonder if my brain will “ever learn” or listen to me 🙂 Not sleeping feels like an “existential threat”, and so of course you must get anxious. But knowing this doesn’t really help me. I did medidation, tried ACT with various success, but nothing got under my fear.
The following article goes to the heart of the “fear of sleepnesless”. Lois Maharg wrote a whole book about insomnia. Google the article “Putting the Fear of Sleeplessness to Rest”.
We need to teach our brain that being awake is not a real threat (it is a perceived threat). We need to teach it that sleeplesness is not dangerous, only uncomfortable. We don’t die of insomnia. The brain does not learn throught “knowing” (alone), we need to show it. I am thinking of the best way to do it.
Yes, it often feels as all the “learning” is lost when the anxious mind takes over.
The question is: what is the best way to “manage” or “eradicate” (better) this anxiety. Since I consider it as a phobia, exposure should be the way to go. But what is the real exposure? Hard sleep restriction?
Sleep anxiety is my problem for years. I often obsess about it during the day. I don’t know what to do about it – should I try meds? I have read a lot about sleep, but knowledge is not my problem. It feels like my anxiety is engrained. It is tough.
I too struggle a lot with this sleep anxiety. Right now, I am in a deep hole too and don’t know what to do. I know all the theory (accept…), but when I lay down, anxiety and intrusive thoughts hit me. It is very frightening.
Hi Mac,
I am very happy to hear that you have recovered so well from this nightmare.
I can need your advice since I am in this nightmare right now. I am in a deep hole not knowing what to do.
HOW did u recover exactly? I find it so hard, and right now impossible, to do this ACT thing. When I lay down, I get very anxious and my mind is “bomarding” me with negative, dark (intrusive) thoughts. I try to accept, observe them.. whatever, but this anxiety looks to be engrained.
All this give me sort of existential fear. What if I am stuck? What if it never goes away? What happens to my job, my life? WIll I get depressed (it drags me down)? aso. A huge vicious circle.
Thanks in advance and stay healthy
Manfred
Yes, Ines, I can very much relate to this. I reguarly struggle with this too. It is “nothing more” than sleep anxiety and/or intrusive thoughts.
I think I can recommend very good things:
1. “The DARE Approach” (book, app, even 1:1 counselling)
http://www.dareresponse.com2. “The Sleep Book” and the app “The Sleep School”
3. Daniel Erichsen’s “The Sleep Coach School”. Start on Youtube with “tons” of great videos. He offers also coaching programms (video and group coaching) and he has a new APP “BedTyme” with 1:1 coaching. He has published also books, his recent is “Set and Forget it”.
4. if u struggle with intrusive thoughts, I can recommend the book “Overcoming unwanted intrusive thoughts” by S. Winston and M. Seif
5. The book (and online course): “Stopping the Noise in Your Head” by Reid WIlson
These are excellent ressouces that go in the exact same direction.
Let me know if u need further advice.
Good luck!
Manfred
I think in the course of time, I have learnt “a thing or two” about (sleep) anxiety. Although I would not consider myself as beinng “fully recovered”, I am doing really well lately. So I want to adress this topic (my personal view) a bit.
1. @AFriend: it is not true, that the DARE approach is just for panic disorders. DARE goes to the core of any anxiety problem. There is the book, then is a fantastic (subscription-based) app with lots of short audios on the approach, various topics (also insomnia or intrusive thoughts) the “daily DARE”, guided meditations, success stories aso. There are also different subscrption plans with facebook support groups and three monthly video calls with Barry und Michelle Cavanaugh (they are both fantastic). U can also book 1:1 sessions. So an excellent for various needs.
2. I highly recommd to other books that go in the exact same direction:
– “Stopping the Noise in Your Head” – by Reid Wilson. It deals with Anxiety and OCD. Reid Wilson has also a website with an excellent (paid) online course.
– “Overcoming unwanted intrusive thoughts by Sally M. WinstonOf course, the “Sleep Book” by G. Meadows is great too. I really like the app “Sleep school” – there u learn to accept, observe and welcome sensations and thoughts around insomnia (imho works with every topci, since the principle is general).
3. ALL these approaches share the exact same contend: You have to observe, accept, welcome, yes even invite ur anxiety to stay. RESISTANCE (what we resist, persist) is the central problem. The only way OUT of it is THROUGH.
4. Never distract from your anxiety. Let it be, invite it to stay, observe it – or u can be even more aggressive and telling it to bring more (“is this all u have”)? And then ENGAGE in whatever u are doing (for ex. resting in bed).
5. CBT-I is a fantastic tool. Martin’s course is excellent. Sleep restriction is imho a key part, stimulus control if u need it (it makes to sense at all if u are way too frustrated while being in bed to stay there) – but I personally think it its better to learn to stay with ur anxiety until it subsides. Experiment with what works best for you.
6. To summarize: Some of us must work “hard” on the cognitive aspect of CBT-I. Just challenging ur thoughts or meditate is for many of us not enough. The approaches/books listed above (there are others) really go to the CORE of anxiety. It takes time and a lot of practice (setbacks will come and are to be expected). But “one day”, u will get it (the brain will be trained and rewired). In fact, it is more of an ATTITUDE than a technique.
The behavioral side helps tremendously (sleep restriction, unwinding, getting out of bed every morning the same time), but work hard on the cognitive side.
@Anafernanda: I am sorry to read u have a tough setback. I think u are the “ideal” candidate for the approaches I mentioned. Let me know if I can further help u a bit.
Merry Christmas to all – stay healthy!
Manfred
@carolineh Welcome to the club! Your story could be written by me. How are u doing? Since we seem to have the same issue with sleep anxiety, we should exchange if u like.
Right now, I am in this hole again. Constant obsessions, anticpatory anxiety during the day and at night…. Intrusive thoughts coming along also. Ths all leads to exitentials threads.
@scottctj: You say that “When I changed my thoughts…”- my problem is “HOW”. I have tried a lot but this damm anxiety is very persistend and creative. I even fear going back to CBT-I although I know it is my best chance.All the best to everyone – stay healthy
Manfred
@Chen maybe this article helps (she also wrote a book about insomnia):
https://psychcentral.com/lib/putting-the-fear-of-sleeplessness-to-rest/
