[Mac0908]

Yes it did. I don’t think there’s any doubt that it was nerve racking. My thoughts were “Geez, now I’m only giving myself an 11:30pm-6am window and what if i STILL don’t sleep through the night??”

And make no mistake there were a good few nights I struggled bad. You may even have to tighten your window a bit at first until you get it right. In my mind, a lot of the time SRT is a situation where it makes things worse before they can get better. Martin would likely agree. But you have to fight through the bad. If you stick to it, before you know it you should absolutely be sleeping through your window night after night like I did. Only thing is, you cannot give it up easily. If you don’t fall asleep right at the start of your window you have to know that panicking is NOT an option. Just rest. Just relax. Just know that eventually you’ll be getting better.

• This reply was modified 3 years, 10 months ago by Mac0908.

[Chen Liang]

Hi everyone – mac are you not depresed after few sleepless night in a row? Like suicidal thoughts and maybe halucination and start hearing things or whatever it is?

[Odinsky]

Thanks Mac! I owe ya. I’m re-reading your old posts and we are definitely very similar. I’m going to jump right in. So just to be clear, after several nights of bad sleep and absolutely sticking to a strict window, you eventually find yourself so tired that you’d go to bed and the sleep drive overrides the anxiety? Did you follow the stimulus control of getting out of bed? And finally, did you work during this, was it totally brutal for you, or not as bad as you thought? Thank you!

[Mac0908]

Yes eventually exhaustion happens around bedtime and usually will put you to sleep easier than usual. That being said, I did get out of bed if my anxiety was feeling out of control, no matter how late.

I always worked during this, of course. Quitting my job was never an option, though i was so bad at one point I actually considered taking a leave of absence. Work and my 6am wakeups everyday was the thing that held this in place probably just as much as anything else. Had it not been for a wakeup time that early I would have recovered years ago. Actually now that I think about it I never would have gotten into this mess in the first place.

[Deb]

Hi Odinsky – I’d have to disagree with Mac here. I think since you’ve had success with ACT, you should stick with it. SRT might just bring on more anxiety. I think it’s just going to take some time for your whole nervous system to settle down. ACT helps with this because you learn to relax and let go. Oppositely, the more you worry about things, the longer it takes. Everything you are going through is normal – the aches and pains, the depression, the mixed experiences of calm mind with nervous stomach, the light sleep mixed with no sleep, the struggle socially. I am a marriage coach and it was so difficult for me to see clients that I cut my practice way down. About the calm mind, but nervous stomach, I didn’t have the nervous stomach as you had, but I similarly was peaceful in my thoughts, but underneath the surface there was some anxiety, which kept me awake. Once I was able to let that go, then I got better.

Anyway, my point is that everything you are going through is completely normal. Please remember that the fundamental cause of insomnia is ANXIETY. So just keep practicing ACT and keep letting things go, and over time your anxiety will decrease which will result in better sleep. Like Gdsmom said, she’s had relapses but over time she has gotten better and better. This will happen to you, too, the more you learn to let go and stop worrying. I had 3 major relapses which lasted about 3 weeks or more each time. But now whenever I start feeling anxiety about sleep or can’t fall asleep I remind myself that worrying about it always just makes it worse. So I let go of the worry and soon I’m back to normal within a day or two.

[Mac0908]

Deb I should note that based on what I’ve read from Odinsky he didn’t have much success with ACT at all. Unless I missed something? I’m reading posts from someone that clearly seems to be struggling very much and for quite some time. Some people may be different, but in my honest opinion for those really having a hard time with long term chronic insomnia, ACT isn’t the only thing that will help. This is why I think SRT is a good place for him to at least start. Yes it will bring some additional anxiety but at least it will get him to sleep which will eventually help him in the long term. Just my two cents but I feel Martin would agree.

Deb how are you actually doing these days? I have not asked in a while.

[Odinsky]

Thanks to both of you for the replies. It means the world to me right now. I sat down and wrote everything out. Last two times I had bouts of insomnia, I used ACT and mindfulness and was successful. This was due to the fact that I had sleep maintenance insomnia. I was falling asleep immediately. Sleeping 4 hours and then waking with anxiety. Because I had already slept a solid bit, and I was in the half sleep state, ACT allowed me to fall back asleep and I solved my problems.

THIS time it’s sleep onset. Which is a totally different animal for me it seems. I can do ACT and mindfulness all day. And feel OK to help my daytime feelings. But as soon as bed times comes closer, I shift From almost falling asleep in the recliner to being very nervous In my stomach. More physical sensations then mental. I transfer to bed, and as I lay there and accept etc, the nervousness in my stomach just grows. I find I will usually fall into a half awake half asleep state, in which I’ll then come out of within about half an hour to an hour. At which point I realize I have not fallen asleep, and then my anxiety grows. I once again stay calm, but I know Deb like you say, it’s still there deep down inside. I’ll lay there and accept and become more awake. I’ll start sweating a bit etc. then eventually I’m hyper alert. Eyes will be closed, and I’m not totally freaking out, but I’m soooo far from sleep. It’s like this eyes closed but wide awake feeling. And I can’t get out of it then. And the whole night is spent accepting and staying mentally calm. But remaining in this very alter Eyes closed state. I feel like the good nights are the ones where I fall asleep for a few hours. Because if I can fall asleep for 3 or so hours. I have to tools to get myself back to sleep. It’s just that initial hurdle ! Does this give you guys any more insight for opinions ? Thanks again!

[Chen Liang]

I think odinsky and i are quite similar. What i am curious is how can you let go of any anxiousness deep down in you especially you have not slept for 2 or 3 days at all. Your ability to let anxiousness go away intrigue me.

[Manfred]

@Mac – glad to hear you are doing better or even good these days. May I ask you how did u arrive there? What did u do? ACT? CBT-I? Was it an anxiety-problem? Did you have also anxiety during the day? Thanks in advance for ur input. All the best.

[Manfred]

@Chen maybe this article helps (she also wrote a book about insomnia):

https://psychcentral.com/lib/putting-the-fear-of-sleeplessness-to-rest/

[Chen Liang]

Hi manfred – i have read it. Its true i have tried SRT for 2 days and i feel like giving up its so tiring so hard and full of terror especially after few days of not sleeping at all. CBTi need discipline and not for the soft hearted many people seems to fail like me because it was way too intense in so many ways. You can go 3 days of no sleep and CBTi will still ask you to follow through and thats where people mostly give up.

[Odinsky]

First night of SRT with SC. Trouble falling asleep as usual. I found getting out of bed and doing dishes helped me a lot. I slept 3.5 hours when I went back to bed and then ACT allowed me to fall back asleep another 1.5 hours until my alarm.

Question about naps. Some books allow them like say goodnight to insomnia. Some strictly forbid.
I find a nap helpful because
1) this is ALL a mental game. In the middle of the night naps help calm me down knowing I can nap mid day tmrw if I’m having a terrible night tonight to at least feel human at some point.
2)A nap helps prove to me I can sleep and am not broken (I nap much quicker and easier than I do fall sleep at night)
3) a nap helps me feel less horrible and get rid of headaches and body aches associated with this Extreme lack of sleep. Hence they make lack of sleep less worrisome because I’m not as physically symptomatic All day. 4) they relieve a little of the psychological sleep pressure I put in myself at night. If I dont feel terrible going to bed, I don’t go to bed thinking “omg if I don’t fall asleep right away I’m gonna die and I can’t take another night.” Instead I go to bed like “I’m really really tired but I don’t feel like I’ll die tonight if I don’t sleep, just cry And that’s ok.”

But I don’t want to nap if
1) it will hurt my progress long term.

What do you guys think!

[Odinsky]

Chen. I’m not a great role model of success here. But I read a quote that said. “If you’re not willing to accept sleeploss in the short term, you may never know what it’s like to sleep well in the long term.” This is super difficult, no doubt. But think of it like this, if you commit now, maybe in 6 months or a year you will be sleeping well again. If you don’t commit now, you may be in the same spot next year still looking for a way out. That’s what’s getting me through right now.

[Deb]

Odinsky – naps helped me both physically and psychologically. When I was very tired, it was so hard to keep going all day. When I took a nap it gave me a second wind and then I could get through the rest of the day. So physically I felt better. Psychologically it helped me because I could tell myself if I didn’t sleep much I could always take a nap the next day. So then it wasn’t a big deal if I did’t sleep much and this reduced my anxiety. My naps were never that long. I usually limited them to about 30 minutes and sometimes up to an hour. I figured if I only slept 2 or 3 hours the night before, a 1 hour nap is not going to reduce myself sleep drive much especially since I usually need at least 7 hours. I wouldn’t nap any longer than that though.

Sounds like the SRT/SCT is working for you so far, Odinsky. I did SRT/SCT before I did ACT and it worked well for the most part in helping me fall asleep. I’ve always had sleep onset insomnia.

Mac, I’m doing well these days. It’s been 3 months now since my last major relapse. I had a couple times within the last 2 weeks where there was some anxiety and I didn’t fall asleep for a few hours. But each time I just reminded myself that worrying about it just made things worse. So I let go of the worry and after a day or two I was back to normal again.

[Odinsky]

Mac and Deb. When you did SRT, what was the experience like when your sleep drive finally over rode your anxiety? I was so beyond exhaustion yesterday, every time I sat down I would start microsleeping so I stayed on my feet all day. At night I couldn’t sit down in the recliner because I would fall asleep instantaneously. My window for sleep was approaching and I couldn’t take it anymore and went to bed a half hour early. I fell right asleep and woke up in half an hour! I felt wide awake again. I got out of bed several times and back in trying to do stimulus control and just became more awake. I feel shattered. Around 2am I took half a benzo and slept till 5. I feel so, so sad. I have been working so hard at this. Maintaining a positive attitude during the day despite pure exhaustion. Practicing mindfulness. Faithfully waking up at my alarm even when sleeping deeply. I went to bed last night thinking tonight was the night I crash. And it would have been an all nighter if it weren’t for taking meds. I just don’t know what to do man. How could I have been that tired and still not just crashed through the night? My wife thinks I should just abandon it and go to bed at regular times. Guys, I’m so lost. I’m trying so hard. I just can’t believe I didn’t fall asleep last night naturally when my head hit the pillow. I don’t know what direction to go in.

[Author]

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