[Deb]

Odinsky – so sorry it’s so difficult for you right now. We know what it’s like. We’ve been there. That’s the thing about this monster, insomnia – you can be totally exhausted, but because of the underlying anxiety, you still don’t fall asleep. I know it’s miserable. I also know how it feels to try so hard and still struggle. You start to feel hopeless and despairing, yet you know you can’t give up. I finally had to get an antidepressant to help me cope.

I’m not sure what to say. Maybe stick with SRT for awhile and see if it gets any better. If not, go back to ACT. Whatever you do, keep coming here and we’ll support you the best we can. You can also get help from the experts like Martin and Dr. Kat from ACT.

[gsdmom]

IMO you should listen to your wife, be gentle with yourself and work on resolving your underlying anxiety. Stay hopeful and have patience. Studies have shown that it takes at least 8 weeks for mindfulness to start changing your brain. I had a sleep study done last year which showed I stayed in the light sleep stage longer than normal. My doctor said this is very common with insomnia. It sounds like you have this too and it is so frustrating. My doctor told me to just tell myself I’m in the light sleep stage, try to relax and go back to sleep. Sometimes this worked, but not always. I am finally able to sleep deeply sooner which has taken 10-11 months.

This is from the Sleep School website using their methods:
How long will it take me to recover?

The results of our 2015 in-house clinical study showed that significant improvements across a wide range of sleep measures occurred within just 5 weeks, including a 50% reduction in self-perceived insomnia severity. Further significant improvements were then reported at 10 weeks, and then at 6 and 12 months, all of which culminated in 86% of the participants becoming ‘normal sleepers’, despite previously suffering from insomnia for over two decades.

[Chen Liang]

Odinsky-imo you almost overcome insomnia. A little more step . One more day of sleeplessness to overcome the fear that you are not afraid to be sleepless. If i am in your position i need someone to tell me one more step one more step one more step.

• This reply was modified 3 years, 10 months ago by Chen Liang.

[Mac0908]

Odinsky as far as SRT goes there is nothing you can do but give it time as others have alluded to here. Whether its ACT or SRT this is anything but a quick fix. Naps I do not agree with in the early stages as they will only mess with the sleep window idea. I am curious what your sleep window looks like but it should probably be no greater than 6 hours. If you are finding it literally impossible to make it to the start of your window then cut it back by 15-30 minutes and try and stick to that. The absolute key is consistency. That is really all I have to say on it for now.

I think I need to take a break from here again because as hard as it may be to believe (or really not) I have found myself in a bit of a rough patch now the last few days. I’m also pretty sure and certain that there’s no irony in the fact that my few bad nights have happened right around the time I’ve been very active in these forums again. Reading all the horror stories, thinking back about my personal past ones, the memories flooded my brain and wouldn’t you know it, I’ve had some trouble now. This is what happens. You recover and your brain forgets what it’s like, and it doesn’t take much for a trigger to occur to start a small (and possibly big) downward spiral.

[Mac0908]

Hi again everyone. Back with an update. Seems as if I can’t shake this rough patch that I’ve fallen into. It’s been a real rude awakening for me, so to speak, letting me know that I’m still definitely not out of the woods as far as insomnia goes. What felt like an eternity of beautiful sleep has suddenly spiraled into over a week now of pretty crummy sleep. Not horrible zombie nights thankfully, but nights where the sleep just hasn’t been very deep.

It’s been the usual case of awaking too early and instead of falling back asleep like I had been doing more and more which resulted in 8 hours or so of accumulation, I’ve now been unable to fall back, as some anxiety creeps in about what’s been happening and boom, next thing I know I have no choice but to just get up. Not liking this one bit of course, and I’m actually a little disappointed in myself for letting it go this far after I had just been boasting about how amazing things were going for me. Last night happened to be a tough one in general as I was battling what I like to call “special event insomnia”. Today I had to be up rather early in general to bring my car in for a repair, and then on top of that later today I also was meeting a friend for dinner. Two notable things that of course were on my mind when I woke too early.

Deb if you’re out there perhaps you can give me some words of encouragement, though I think I know at this point that only myself can turn things back around. Unreal just how fast it happens.

[Deb]

Hi Mac – sorry you’re having some rough nights. My guess is there is some underlying anxiety about going back to the office soon. Also, as you said those two events brought on some anxiety. But once you have more confidence in your ability to sleep those events will stop triggering bad nights. For instance, yesterday I traveled to CA. We got there late, I had a coke late (well maybe about half a coke) and didn’t get into bed until very late and into a strange bed. As I was lying there, there was a little anxiety and I wondered if all of this would keep me awake. But I had no problem sleeping. In the past when my recovery was still was fresh, I could get triggered much more easily. When I had relapses, they lasted longer too.

So your nights of good sleep is still relatively new and I don’t think you’ll completely recover until you’ve built up confidence to sleep on your new work schedule. Then over time you’ll develop confidence to sleep when the special events or anything else comes up as well.

[Chen Liang]

Hi deb and mac- relating sleep confidence i stoped taking my medication and this week i tried to do what martin told me to do all the SRT and SC and doing stuff on the day. But seriously this has been 5 days and i slept lightly only for 30 minutes. Now my head and body hurt and my mood is so bad. I tried to not take notice but it is so obvious i tried to accept and do mindfullness but in the back of my head i know my body ask sleep badly. I cant do anything about it. Everytime i hit my head on the pillow my mind start reminding you have not slept for days you need to sleep now! And this thought actually not working i think its controlling. I need advice. Thank you

[Mac0908]

Thanks Deb. Yes there’s no doubt that I likely built up some new underlying anxiety once I found out that work from home is coming to an end on July 7th. As well as I’ve been doing, I know that day is in the back of my head like wildfire. I’m still struggling. Bit of a rough relapse this has been now, I must say. But it’s important of course to try and stay positive and I know more than most that it’s just part of the ongoing lengthy process.

[Deb]

Hi Chen – just wondering how long have you been doing SRT and SC. Has it worked at all for you and have you been disciplined about it?

[Chen Liang]

hi deb- its been 3 weeks but this week i stoped my medicine. i dont know is it because of the medicine or something else but 7 day 0 sleep at all. so much anxiety and i am shaking at night . i went to bed and i do ACT i shake and let it be , there is tingling sensation on my chest also and my head is so full of adrenaline or arousal and i let it be i just lay down on my bed since i cant do anything anyway. i dont know whether i do ACT right i just let all emotion come and be let them be there but they dont go away and i just okay its fine let them be i sleep or not doesnt matter anymore i just lay down on this bed. At some point i feel numb and so discomfort and i move a little its like my muscle is cramping a bit. deb can i email you for some talk there is serious issue i want to talk about unrelated to sleep maybe you can give me advice. oilforsoul gmail.

[Chen Liang]

Hi deb also about SRT and SC i forgot to reply what you ask. i do SRT and not so strict SC. i stick to it very much going to bed and waking up sticking to the time . there is a moment i just realize i was drifting off to sleep so badly and my body jerk so bad my hand is up in the air and my leg up in the air. amazing right.

[Chen Liang]

Hi deb- i want to ask something it seems crucial i read everyone post here in this thread. Why whenever i read the comment of everyone here seems they struggle with acceptance. It is like they are faking their acceptance. If someone trully accept that they may not sleep that night ,or giving up the struggle to sleep night after night maybe giving up trying to sleep or sleep Forever, why would you be concerned about the anxiety and everyone seems trying so hard to get rid of the anxiety. If you trully accept and give up sleep then even if there is anxiety every night you will be fine and let the anxiety be there because you dont care anymore. This is how think correct me if i am wrong. Because i keep reading that it seems everyone here who do mindfullness and welcoming are doing it for the purpose of trying to make sleep happen instead of just give up whatever happen happen. You said you accept and give up sleep then why try this and that let fear be there anxiety be there. Also i want to ask about frustration, isnt frustration is the opposite of acceptance letting go or giving up?

• This reply was modified 3 years, 10 months ago by Chen Liang.

[burn]

I see some struggles in the ‘ACT’ thread. Perhaps I will contribute my advice as well.

Chen, I see you are Martin’s client. Why don’t you just stay with the course for now and don’t overthink it. Stop solution-seeking behavior for now, wait for withdrawal symptoms subside and see if the Martin’s approach brings you results. You already have paid for the course, why not go through it diligently? If it doesn’t work well enough for you, try ACT.
If you want to dive into ACT I have several recommendations for you:
1) Read the ‘Sleep book’ of Guy Meadows multiple times. I don’t remember how many times I read it, perhaps 6 times at least. Every time I was discovering what I was doing wrong. You will find advice here, on this forum, but none will be able to do your homework for you. Ultimately, it is you and your inner world, which you will need to accept.
2) The major rule of ACT that you need to remind yourself over and over and over and over and over and over again: whenever you try to change things, you bring more arousal. That’s what keeps you awake at night. Through mindfulness techniques you will learn how to recognize what is happening and detach from it without trying to change it.
3) About ‘not caring if you sleep tonight’. I guess it was Deb’s advice. With all due respect to Deb (I mean it), I think this advice to be potentially misleading. I’m glad that this way of acceptance works for Deb, maybe because she is very spiritual person, but it never worked for me and given what I’ve learned from Dr Katharina Lederle, I think that this approach will not work for everyone.

So what is acceptance? What is acceptance of sleeplessness, of insomnia? I will talk from my experience (including experience with Dr Lederle): acceptance simply means acknowledging what is present, what is happening. It does not mean you have to like it, it does not mean you need to ignore it. These are the opposite of acceptance. Remember point 2): whenever you try to change things, you bring more arousal. For instance, you go to bed and you hope to get a good sleep tonight. Ask yourself what do you feel, what do you experience. Be honest with yourself! Consider it like a confession in a church and you are your own priest. Maybe you feel anxiety, you feel desire to be asleep, you feel desire for your insomnia to go away. It is ok to feel it! Don’t try to change those, because see point 2). Or during daytime, you may feel anxiety, nasty physical sensations due to lack of sleep. If you try to ignore them or make them go away or force yourself to like your current state, it is the opposite of acceptance.

So how do you accept? As I said consider it a confession to yourself. Describe yourself what you feel. For instance, you feel anxiety. Ok. Where do you feel it? Give it shape, give it color, give it temperature etc. After you do that, you will suddenly feel that miraculously …. nothing has changed. These feelings did not go away. You did not start suddenly like them, your life did not suddenly return to normal. But what happens at this moment, is that you start to open to your feelings. You simply acknowledge that this is present, this is part of you, with shape, color, temperature, character etc and it feels unpleasant, but this is not whole you. By simply describing it, you will start accepting it.

When Dr. Meadows says ‘to accept it’ or ‘let it go’ in his book he always means ‘let it be’, by describing and seeing it as part of you or entity in you but not whole you. Through mindful exercises you need to learn to see you feelings, thoughts, urges etc. Meditation itself is useless for sleep if you don’t learn from it to see your feelings, thoughts etc. Meditation is just a practice of this noticing and accepting, not a trick to get you into sleep.

So you feel anxious? Accept it. You feel depressed? Accept it. You desire to be asleep and you are self-monitoring your sleep status? Accept it. What does this desire to be asleep/sleep expectation look like? Where is it located? Mine is like a cloud in my head. It is perfectly ok to feel those, because you are human being who suffers from insomnia. Don’t try to change those, because see point 2).

Do you feel like you are abusing mindfulness tools turning them into trick to get yourself to sleep? Accept it. Be honest with yourself, open to your feelings.

Final advice, if after Martin’s course you decide to seriously try ACT, contact Dr Katharina Lederle from the Sleep School. By the way she can also be contacted through another company Somnia. She is so, so worth it.

[Chen Liang]

hi burn thank you for replying. I understand… im not sure is this withdrawal or im just stuck in nil sleep. i am so intrigued by ACT i was thinking of doing ACT with CBTi. From how you explain acceptance it means allow every thought and emotion be with you in the middle of the night on bed without doing anything just watch them and let them be inside you. But with so much anxiety or thought or stuff appearing in my head and feeling isnt that will not make me more relaxed? i cant imagine sitting with all those stressfull thoughts and emotions. you also said about using tools to make you sleep and accept it this is kind of confusing so in the end if we accept all the stuff in ourself that is so stressfull like what you mention possibly we wont sleep that night which mean in the end its like deb said we might not sleep also and we accept it which in the end we kind of not put any care or emotion toward not sleeping as if it is normal. Am i wrong here somehow. I enroll the sleep school website also bought the book and read it. This method of ACT is very confusing because human mind are complicated. I do really feel i need to contact dr Kat and talk with her about my issue. All which is mental need more talk and guidance compared to CBTi which is quite simple just follow the SRT . but ACT seems like everyone have their own thought and tendency to do something with their thought .

[Steve]

Hi everyone. Been a while since I’ve been on here and I hope you are continuing to progress. The reason I have been away is that I’ve had a second opinion with a neurologist and I’m afraid it’s bad news. They are of the opinion after going over all of my symptoms, including the insomnia, that I suffered a small stroke after I had the surgery almost two years ago that started all of the insomnia. So it’s ironic that I was told to get the surgery to avoid a stroke and it ends up causing one, even if it’s just a small one. The insomnia has gotten better but unfortunately, other symptoms persist. I hesitated to post this because ACT and SRT does work and I don’t want anyone thinking because it’s not working for them that there must be something horribly wrong with them. ACT and SRT just take time to work. And I also posted this to let the main people I conversed with know why I have been away and won’t be on here much anymore. I have to transition my life from trying to get better from insomnia to learning to live with the symptoms I have caused by the stroke. That’s probably why I set my e-mail filter to block all e-mails from this site as some of the e-mails were depressing me and I have to admit I wasn’t handling the news about the stroke very well. I certainly didn’t need more bad stories to bring me down. If there’s one thing I guess I learned from all of this is to trust my body. I knew that the insomnia I suffered wasn’t from anxiety and yet all of the doctors kept pushing pills on me telling me I needed them when in reality, anxiety wasn’t even the cause of my problems. Anyway, good luck to all of you who are doing ACT.

Deb – Thanks for all of your help and input.
gsdmom – Good luck to you as you still seem to be showing improvement, even if slowly.
Mac – I see you’re going through another rough patch. Hang in there. You know it can get better.

[Author]

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