[jazzcat22]

Daf, thanks so much for the time you took in the interview and your posts here—and for your honesty. I don’t post much here because I often feel like a failure in that I improved remarkably within a few weeks but didn’t sustain it to the point where it is consistent. My experience is much like yours, except that I only sleep in bed. My sleep window was 5.5 hours—which wasn’t a restriction at all because when I started CBTI I had as many nil nights as you and never got more than about 4, so averaged about 3 hours. Sleeping 5.5 hours was my wildest dream—one that I never thought would happen—until it did, about a few weeks in. By the end of the eight weeks I was sleeping often 7 hours—which as long as I’ve ever slept. Never been an 8 hour sleeper. Always functioned well on 6 to 7. I wouldn’t say I’m a deep sleeper, but the sleep has seemed restorative. And I’ve long been waking up several times during the night to use the bathroom (65 yo bladder).

Like you, I can function well on 6 hours sleep. And after a nil night I do fall asleep the next night—at least eventually. It’s not like I drag myself out of bed after a nil night (as I possibly had last night—I’m positive it was 0 to 2 hours—after a couple of months not having this) or have difficulty functioning the next day. My problem is that I don’t often get any tangible signs of sleepiness. I get a head nod while reading about once every 3 weeks. Otherwise just some yawns and my brain slowing down every so slightly. Tonight after sleeping from 4 to 6 am, if that, I easily won’t be sleepy until midnight. And although I’d rather sleep from 10:30 to 5:30 or 11:30 to 5:30 or 6:30, I’d be happy enough if I could just do from about midnight to 6 if I can fall asleep quickly. I honestly don’t think my sleep drive builds up as quickly as most people’s even though I am active. I don’t seem to be on the 16 or even 17 hour plan.

Because I’m retired I don’t set an alarm but always wake up between 5 and 6:30, regardless of what time I go to bed. I honestly didn’t think it mattered if I sometimes got 6.5 0r 7 hours sleep instead of the 6—seems close enough to throw the whole thing off, but my nil to two hour night last night did follow a 6.5 to 7 hour the night before (most people would laugh at us thinking that 6.5 to 7 hours is a long sleep!), so who knows? But your post helped me to not view it as a failure, but just a hiccup.

I’m fortunate to not feel much different or even tired after a limited night and I worry almost not at all any longer about health implications of low sleep. If I should get sick in the future I will never know whether I would have gotten sick anyway, as plenty of people do who sleep 8+ hours consistently.

My biggest success story is getting over the anxiety and panic about not sleeping. I can go to bed, cautiously optimistic about sleep but also knowing and accepting that I might not fall asleep—and that’s okay too. So last night I started doing strict CBTI at midnight (except that I didn’t really feel sleepy, but I seldom do—just yawned some, so thought I’d try). I don’t really mind popping out of bed every 20 minutes and going to the sunroom to listen to a podcast or reading and then trying again after 20 minutes. But when 2 am came and I hadn’t fallen asleep and wasn’t feeling sleepy, I am now able to switch to ACT because at that point I accept the fact that sleep isn’t coming and start to get a little bored after just lying on the couch, so then can lie in bed calmly and just enjoy that I’m not asleep but I’m still resting and in bed. I think I can just do this for about 2 hours before getting ancy (a big improvement—at one point I’d get up after 2 minutes because I was having so much anxiety) so it’s possible I fell asleep for a couple of hours between 2 to 4 last night.

And I so agree with you about Jon Kabat Zinn. His approach to secular mindfulness was cutting edge and so helpful. There’s a free oline free MBSR course that simulates his 8 week course developed for hospitals and pain patients, so after I completed my CBTI program I went on to that to better practice ACT.

[JTthemillenial]

Hi everyone,

Been doing ACT for about two weeks now and my sleep has turned around nicely, albeit with some ups and downs. As of three nights ago I stopped taking sleep aids and have been getting 6.5-7 hours of sleep! I’m hoping the upward trajectory continues. I’m thinking I’ll be implementing some light SR soon since it seems to be compatible with ACT.

I think the quick turnaround probably has to do with only having had insomnia for a couple months, whereas a lot of people here have been dealing with it for several months and years. Glad to hear everyone is sticking with their treatment plans!

• This reply was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by JTthemillenial.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by JTthemillenial.

[JTthemillenial]

Jazzcat I appreciate what you said about your biggest success story being getting over the panic about not sleeping. I had no idea how I was supposed to break that thought cycle until I found ACT. Now I am slowly learning to balance those feelings of cautious optimism and acceptance. It takes tremendous discipline to move towards confidence, and I know everyone here is capable.

[Daf]

Thanks for both responses.
Mac, perhaps you are right re your point re sleeping on couch indicating I’m not fully healed. But it works, plus I sleep in bed on holiday or when away from home with no problem.
Martin in the podcast had no issue with it.
By the way, the podcast is in the success stories titled Success with SRT Act /Mindfulness.
I feel fine with just 6 hours sleep actually, andon days when I may get less, I feel fine too. Martin says in podcast with me that 6 is more normal than 8.Even when teenager I only ever got say about 7 hrs max, and of course sleep need declines from age 20 to 60 or so I’ve read.
This thing about 8 hrs is really just not true, peddled by misinformed articles in the papers. Plus sleep need varies massively in people, just as height does.

[Mac0908]

I agree totally on the 8 hours. I used to be a big “8 hour” guy for many years before Insomnia actually taught me otherwise. I realized that I never really getting 8 hours anyway. If I crashed early at 10:30 or so it started occurring to me that those were the nights I’d wake early, a little before my alarm. Meanwhile if it were a later night, 11 or later, then I’d make it to my alarm. In other words, all along I’d say I was more of a 7 hour sleeper.

Still can’t get behind your couch situation as I just don’t consider that a completely healed person. I was listening to your podcast thinking that you were, but I myself would never revert to sleeping on my couch full time. But hey, if you’re happy and you feel good everyday then I too really am happy for you.

[JTthemillenial]

Welp. I just had my first all-nighter after three weeks of generally sleeping pretty well. With my anxiety over sleep meds out of the way I just hear my inner voice yelling “sabotage!” Trying not go get wound up in doubt and grief but it’s hard. Hope you all slept okay last night.

[TiredTwinDad]

I hear you JT. It’s been an on/off couple weeks for me. I did not expect last night to be as bad as it was, and I grew frustrated waiting for the alarm for what felt like hours. It’s certainly been worse though, and I’m trying to stay positive. This learned behavior didn’t start in one day and it won’t end in one day either. I’m glad I wasn’t tempted the last 2 nights to take a pill.

[Daf]

I had my first all nighter (nil sleep) in four months, three weeks ago, but the next day, after a few hours of grumpiness and low mood, I laughed about it, reminded myself that I’d almost certainly sleep well the next night and got on ^ got about 80% of what I’d normally get done, done. Even played football the following evening.

And, I slept like a baby the next night.

No nil sleep nights since then. Sometimes more sleep than others.

Remove the fear that you won’t sleep again naturally or the daft thought that you are unique among mammals in that you have lost the ability to sleep – and you remove the problem.

Hard to believe when you feel stressed out about not feeling asleep, I know. But sleep will come in the end, no matter how anxious you are. Sleep drive will beat the greatest anxiety in the end. Even people with terminal illnesses sleep and soldiers in extreme war zones. So can you!

[JTthemillenial]

TwinDad, sounds like a play-by-play of my night. I am still relieved that I know I can sleep pill-less and am not really interested in going down that road again. I’d rather face worse sleep in the interim than deal with medication anxiety.

Daf, appreciate the pep talk. I’m mostly stressed by the roller-coastering and not knowing when I’ll sleep well and when I won’t. But I guess the acceptance practices are there to help me manage my own expectations.

[Daf]

Here is the link to the podcast interview Martin Reed did with me. Worth listening to the whole thing (but I would say that, wouldn’t I!)

Success with CBTI and ACT / Mindfulness

May even make you fall asleep!

[Mac0908]

Daf I love your positive attitude! You really understand what it means to be over insomnia.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by Mac0908.

[suren]

Hi All,

It’s the end of my 1st week since trying ACT for the 2nd time, and I’m starting to feel discouraged again.

My sleep window is from 11- 6:20. On the 1st two nights I got some intermittent light sleep (the kind where you’re semi awake with thoughts), then a nil night, then another intermittent light sleep night, then a series of 3 nil nights (including last night)

To contextualize the above, I haven’t had restorative sleep since May. At best, I’ve had light patchy sleep here and there (about twice weekly with stretches of nil nights in between)

Since this pattern is so very different than most on here, I often feel that there’s something wrong with me. Why haven’t I gotten a single night of restorative sleep (or experienced marginal progress) after trying all these techniques for 5 months?

Suren

[Mac0908]

First things first you can’t go by the “first two nights” or anything of the such. Depending on how long your insomnia went on for, SRT might not even begin working for weeks and there will almost always be some bad nights, especially in the beginning. With regards to ACT, can you describe some of the routines you are doing?

[Mac0908]

Daf I just wanted to grab a line you said above. “Sleep drive will beat the greatest anxiety in the end”

This is true, 100%, yes. But what happens when your strong sleep drive/pressure WEAKENS, after weaning off of SRT? Then what do you do? Just stay up until you’re exhausted for the rest of your life? I used to go to bed not being completely sleepy all the time and I would sleep alright. Now days I feel I can only get good nights when my sleep drive is strong (usually during SRT). So, what do you say? Have you been able to reach a point where you can go to bed only semi tired and not very sleepy/head nodding?

• This reply was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by Mac0908.

[Daf]

Hi Mac,
I try to only open up to accepting sleep when I feel tired. However, I often open up to accepting sleep when I’m not nodding off tired. Sometimes I’m asleep in a short while, sometimes not. If not I just try to chill and accept it but if it makes me feel a little uptight I may get up and switch the TV on and listen to some chill out TV programme with my eyes closed till I feel sleepy.
Hope that helps.
Daf

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