[Manfred]

Hi David,

thanks A LOT for your reply. Helps me a lot.

Did you do the CBT-I on your own or did you work with Martin or another counselor? I am asking because Martin says not go under 5,5 hours. But I understand that with so many “nil nights”, even 4 hours is a huge progress.

Did you stay in bed during these “nil sleep nights” oder got up? I suppose, after hearing the podcast, it was anxiety/obsessive thinking that lead to these nil nights, wasn’t it?

Tonite, I am going to watch the Kabat-Zinn video you mention.

Great that you recovered!! Hats off!

Manfred

[Daf]

I did it on my own but also went on a course in our N H S, UK health service.
But I did not find their course really helped much, because I just don’t agree with getting up if not slept for 15 mins, nor their focus on having same get up time.
Plus most of the other people in the group were not as bad as me in terms of lack of sleep, which made me feel worse.
I think working with someone one to one can help and I imagine Martin is pretty good, as insomnia is his focus.
I would try to stay in bed and be in acceptance usually, but sometimes I might get up, but that would be at least after an hour.

[Deb]

Hi Whitelori – That’s great that the night before last you stopped struggling and had a decent night. What was it like? How long were you awake and how long did you sleep? Then what happened last night? What did you do when you realized that your mind was active? Did you end up sleeping at all? How much? Is this how it usually is for you?

About combining ACT and CBT-I, I don’t think it’s a good idea. The idea behind ACT is to learn to relax about sleep, so you don’t want to be worrying about anything like your sleep window. As long as it’s a reasonable length, I think you should be fine. Of course you want to be tired when you go to bed, so I suggest waiting to go to bed until you’re tired. But you don’t have to be super tired.

Since you know what it feels like now to be accepting and relaxed in bed like you were the night before last, I would aim for this state of mind. If your mind gets too active, you may want to do something to calm it like get up and reading for a little bit, journaling, or whatever settles down your mind. Then go back to bed. I find for myself that sometimes when my mind is active it settles down on it’s own after awhile although it may take an hour or so. There were times when I thought about getting up, but then I laid there and eventually my mind settled down and I fell asleep.

Just keep your focus on accepting and not struggling night by night. I think you will start have more decent nights then. If you find yourself struggling, then let go of the struggle. If your mind gets too active, find a way to calm it down or just lay there until it eventually calms down on its own. Consistency with this method is very important. You want to teach your brain that the bed is a safe place and not a place of worry and anxiety.

[gsdmom]

Hi Deb and everyone – I have not posted recently because I’ve been all over the place. I had some good nights then 3 weeks ago had a bad night – that was OK, I accepted that but then the next night when I couldn’t sleep I really got frustrated. Then I struggled and got desperate, and decided to try one more prop or gimmick to try to induce sleep and walked down to my neighborhood cannabis shop and bought a vape pen, a controlled dose of THC to help with sleep. For someone without chronic insomnia, this may help, it did make me a bit sleepy and mood was OK, but certainly did not put me to sleep. My job has me working about 3 nights a week till 9pm-10pm, which is not bad for the average person or for me prior to insomnia, but now it amps up my mind too much, making sleep difficult. I’ll will have to deal with this until April.

I will have 3-4 nights in a row of sleeping normal, then a series of bad nights. As others often mention, the light sleep is so common and annoying. Some nights I can get to sleep right away, but I’m in light sleep and wake up 2 hours later often then staying awake the rest of the night. It seems to take a couple hours just to stop struggling so I can just relax and be comfortable in bed, but eventually it happens. I re-read a chapter of the Sleep Book which helped with acceptance again. Then a couple nights ago as I was leaving work, this thought popped into my head, that maybe my brain is damaged, that the medicine I took almost a year ago did some damage to my nervous system and I am changed for the long term or forever. Whether or not this is true, it helped me with acceptance because I realized in my frustration that my goal was to get back to “normal”, I wanted to get back to being the old me, and this wasn’t happening as fast as I’d like, leading to struggle and frustration. Whereas now I realized there might not be an “old me” anymore (maybe an older looking me, haha) and just to accept that I am who I am now. I hope this makes sense to you all, but it has helped me relax a bit which is what my brain needs.

[Steve]

Hi gsdmom – Like you, I haven’t posted on here much as my sleep has been all over the board. In addition, I am trying to avoid places that keep reminding me about insomnia. Unlike a lot of you here, I don’t have anybody else to really talk to in order to get my mind on other things, so I tend to think about insomnia more than I should. I had a really bad spell about 3 weeks ago and I think it was because the one year anniversary of the real bad part of my insomnia occurred. After that though, I had some good spells. Not great, but good. But the last 6 to 8 nights it seems I have been alternating between good and bad sleep. Monday night was really good and I felt good the next day. Not as good as if I was cured, but really functional. Then last night I had a really bad night. It felt like I didn’t have any sleep drive after Monday’s sleep yet I know that wasn’t true because I was still very tired. And of course, I went to bed thinking only that I would rest and not expecting sleep. Didn’t work out as I think if I got 2 hours I was lucky. I just can’t seem to string two good nights in a row. I finished acupuncture and while it was relaxing, I don’t think it helped with sleep. I am going to go to a couple meditation sessions so I can work with the instructor and get a better feel for it. The Meadows book was good but I have a lot of questions so I think I want a live instructor to help me for 2 or 3 sessions. Right now, I think all of my anxiety is due to the insomnia itself. Any anxiety that caused the insomnia is long gone. I just have to keep welcoming the unwelcome thoughts and accepting whatever happens. I can only hope it re-trains my brain to sleep. I am really glad for you that you can get a couple nights in of normal sleep. I’ve forgotten what one night of normal sleep feels like. Good luck to everyone out there.

[Mac0908]

It is difficult Steve. There is no other way to describe it. For us chronic sufferers with rather deep underlying anxiety it can take a long, long time before we come out of this. In my opinion this awful experience will clearly always be stuck in our minds, so we almost have no other choice but to accept the fact that we are “tainted” sleepers now and that insomnia can always come back, possibly. That being said, as long as we learn how to deal with it and take care of it we can bring those possibilities down to as little as 1%. But as we’ve learned in this long thread, there really is no way out, at least for long term sufferers, unless we begin to truly accept the hell that are zombie days, under eye bags and everything else. Only then can we possibly move forward (with some other tools of course).

I too seem to be in the same boat as you and a few others on here lately, Steve. A bit all over the place. A few good days, a few bad, a few great, then a few decent. Overall feeling like I’ve progressed good enough to where I’m really having a bit of a breakthrough, but at the same time having 2-3 pretty crappy nights in a row like I’ve had Mon Tues Weds of this week now brings me down. Very tired today to the point where i’d actually call last night a flat out bad night. Had a very early awakening. Didn’t look at clock, but I know it was early. I didn’t stay fully awake or panic when it happened which is the case a lot lately which is a huge improvement for me IMO, but rather I just accept the awakening as much as I can and instead experience light sleep for the remaining 1-2 hours of my night. This light sleep really may as well be no sleep though as many of us kind of know, especially when I see just how brutally tired I feel the next day.

There’s still anxiety there in us even if we don’t think so, I’ve realized. For some like myself it may not be there AT ALL anymore when falling asleep or in the hours leading to bedtime but instead might appear when we have an awakening which is what is the case with me. I don’t freak out by any means anymore, but I’ll admit when I wake at 3 or 4am, there is still some frustration. Enough to still upset me to the point where I can’t drift right back off like I did for most of my life when I’d have a similar awakening. Hopefully some more time will help ease things more and more, but boy am I tired today.

[Steve]

Mac – Sorry to hear about your bad last couple of nights. I agree with you that when we go to bed we might not have the anxiety. It’s during the night that it wakes us up as our sleep drive lessens. I think if I can just start stringing some good nights together in a row, it will give me more confidence in my ability to sleep and stay asleep as well as help my body recover from the side effects of the insomnia. It seems that every time I start to lose the tiredness and brain fog I have a very bad night which brings it all back. But I still have to find a way to get rid of the anxiety or I will be more susceptible to the early awakenings. Last night was a relatively good night for me so the string of alternating nights continues.

[Deb]

Sorry you guys are having such a hard time. I’m no expert on this, only on my own insomnia and recovery, but it seems to me that the most important thing for ACT to work over the long haul is consistency in getting into that acceptance state at night. This is what teaches our brain to relax and settles down our overactive nervous system. Of course it was easier for me than you guys to stay consistent because I didn’t have to practice it very long. It took me less than two weeks again to recover. You guys have had to practice this a lot longer.

Because it’s taking so much longer for you guys, I really recommend you get some help. So that’s great, Steve, that you already decided to do this. I think when you’re struggling with something as difficult as insomnia and as long as you guys have been struggling, it’s important to get help. My guess is that you haven’t been able to stay completely consistent with your acceptance and slip back into frustration, anxiety, and looking for other ways to solve the problem. Therefore, your brain cannot settle down. But with some help, you would get the “hand-holding” and encouragement you need to persist and stay consistent. And sometimes you need someone that believes in your ability to recover when you can’t. Then you can hang onto their faith in you until you begin to develop that faith in yourself.

If you contact Dr. Kat, you can set up appointments so that you see her every week for a half hour instead of an hour every two weeks. In between, you can email her with any questions or problems you may have. I think that this more regular help from an expert will give you the hope and encouragement you need, and will help you persevere more consistently towards your recovery.

[whitelori]

Deb – Thanks for the encouragement. That night I did fall off into sleep, I told myself that the struggle for “us” is over and that sleep is not the enemy and then I just went off. I awakened a few times and was able to fall back. I remember I journaled before I went to bed which I don’t normally do. My mind was not particularly busy though. The next night, I did not journal and also did not fall asleep at all the whole night so it was bad. Then night before last, I had to take something because I had a busy dinner party here at my house and had a lot of cooking to do. I had maybe 7 hours of “drug” sleep as I like to call it. Then last night, I drifted off for maybe 5 hours and then awakened and could not get my mind to stop. As you know, my biggest trouble is getting the mind to stop working at night. I have gotten up to journal to try and calm it down, and sometimes that is very helpful. I am still considering working with Kat. I need to find out costs and things like that.

Gdsmom – I can relate totally to wishing for the “old”me. I have had insomnia so long that I am a different person because of it and so I accept that. I don’t give up thinking that insomnia will improve for me, but I have had to accept the dark eye bags and feeling like *&*&* a lot! Very difficult.

Steve – you are not alone as you know. I would love to experience too that normal night. Just go to bed, have enough that I need which is 7-8, and just wake up! It is so hard this problem, but I have been inspired by your posts.

Mac – you are so right how that one awful experience stays stuck there and how we have to accept those times we are in zombie land. If only we could back, and have certain things erased! I would love to have that one thought that started this for me just gone and I wonder how my life would have been then?

[Christie77]

Hi all

I just wanted to say ACTi has been a complete game changer for me. I’d only had insomnia for 6 weeks but after reading Guy’s book and many posts on here, I implemented the ACT strategies and within 2 nights I was sleeping 6-7 hours. I know relapses are common but they don’t scare me as I have the techniques. I probably won’t visit here much again but want to say to you all keep going with ACTi. I’d tried CBTi with varying success (some good nights many bad) but it changed when I focused on the ACT strategies. I do have gentle sleep restriction but aside from that my relationship with my bed and sleep has improved so much.

[Mac0908]

And another bad night to cap off a rough week overall. While I am not calling it an official relapse, it certainly looks like I’m in the middle of something here that began this past Saturday night when I had a rare rough weekend night that lead to a bad Sunday. It carried over to the work week and here I am a zombie today at the end. I know I have to keep calm, keep cool and all that. No secret there. I’m not panicking or venting here like I used to. But I just can’t seem to put my finger on what even really happened this week. I’m at that point where I feel like maybe I should change something or take some sort of action, but that’s really not what ACT is about, is it.

I’ve simply been going to bed completely anxiety free around 10-10:30, and what’s happened is (as I’ve wrote in a few previous posts) I’ll have an early awakening that will lead to light sleep for the rest of the night. Sometimes this can be an estimated couple of hours. At the same time during said awakenings I will admit that is when the anxiety surfaces and I have these visions of all the bad history in that bed and how it may “never be stopped” until I move, or until I sleep in a different room. Things to that effect. I think about stories where people say they were never fully cured until they moved and think about that. It’s hard to not feel that way sometimes, especially when I have slept better in other places (i.e. my parents, hotels). What do you think… Deb? Steve? Daf? Perhaps I have been going to bed just a LITTLE too early after all?

[delv-x]

Sorry to hear Mac. I recall your whole history but I recall if you go to bed early you end up with lighter sleep and that’s pretty normal. That can be expected if your body is unable to take a longer sleep window. If 10:30-11 worked, I say stay with it because with ACT or anything close to it is about not trying to fix anything but just do nothing and sleep will come. Ill take light sleep vs no sleep/tossing and turning any day. At least light sleep passes the night quicker.

I’ve had a really long stretch of no complaint sleep. I stopped taking anything to help me sleep since Sept/Oct of 2019. It’s not perfect but if I just lay there and relax sure enough sleep will come and I stay asleep. If I wake up I can usually fall back asleep within a reasonable amount of time. No complaints.

And here I am with one bad night. I fell asleep within 20-30 minutes and woke up what may have been 20 minutes later. I couldn’t get back to sleep. My body was just tense and I just didn’t feel sleepy. After a few hours I wanted to see if I can salvage the night and took half a dose of sleep aid. I figured that it might help and the dosage shouldn’t interfere with the few hours I have left. I did fall asleep a few more times but each time was very short.

No clue what brought this on and hope it’s not another bout. All I can do is the same. Go to bed at an appropriate and reasonable time. Get up at a reasonable time that’s consistent. Realize I can sleep and have for months! Try not to dwell on the bad nights. I

Hope the rest are doing well!

[Deb]

Christie – that’s wonderful that ACT is working well for you! I know that you must feel so relieved.

Delv – too bad about the bad night, but I’m sure you’ll get back to normal soon since now you’ve got this history of many good nights behind you.

Mac – all I can think of to say is that if you’re going to take some action, call Dr. Kat. I’m sure that she has worked with difficult cases like yours. She can answer all of your questions and give you the encouragement you need. I don’t think it will help you to go back to SR, because you will still continue to have the underlying anxiety. The fact that you’re thinking all these worrisome thoughts when you wake up, shows me that there’s a lot of anxiety there. I remember how I was worried about the light sleep I was having. But because I worried about it, wondering if this was normal or if it was going to stay like this FOREVER, then it did persist. But once I talked to Dr. Kat and learned that this was perfectly normal, then I relaxed, accepted it and then my sleep got better. It just seems that you need something to help you calm down and stop worrying – whether that be drugs (anti-anxiety) or the help and encouragement of a professional who can reassure you and help you persevere when it’s difficult and you start worrying that it’s not working.

[Mac0908]

Thanks Deb. Yeah I know we’re supposed to view it all as “normal” and part of the recovery process, but when it’s months later now after starting ACT and I’m dealing with 6 rough nights in a row, it’s hard not to think there’s at least some sort of problem that maybe I can be proactive about helping.

Also, I absolutely wasn’t referring to going back to SR with my comments about going to sleep later. I just meant that, as Delv somewhat alluded to, my body just isn’t an 7.5-8 hour sleep body and maybe lessening my “window” is a natural normal thing to do. I pretty much realized this a while back now as you might know very well. I’m just not a 7.5-8 hour person anymore. I’m more like a solid 7 hour guy in my honest opinion, after years of seeing my sleep patterns. So, it really shouldn’t be much of a surprise that I’m having difficulty making it to my 6am alarm after hopping into my bed around 10pm these days. So maybe if I hit the hay more around 11p things would change a bit, that’s all. Worth a shot, no? But yeah, SR days are behind me, I can say that much. I have weekend lie in’s more often now and don’t worry a bit about them. I’m no longer afraid of my bed, but instead my anxiety is solely only during the awakenings, which I know, is still not any better. Some nights are better than others, but it’s still there.

Also, I think some more ACT can do me good. Can’t say I’ve been practicing lately. Was just trying to ride the wave of a few decent weeks and then suddenly things took a turn for the worse the last couple and now definitely this week.

How are you doing with your relapse recovery, Deb ?

• This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by Mac0908.

[Steve]

I really don’t know what to suggest for you Mac. Obviously you still have the anxiety that is bothering you during the awakenings. Maybe practicing the tools of ACT more would help you. I don’t really know about switching to another room. I tried that and it didn’t work for me. But maybe it would work for you. I keep having these alternating nights myself except for these last two nights which have both been poor. I do lie awake in quiet wakefulness with very little anxiety yet I just can’t cross that threshold and go to sleep. I don’t know when I’ll overcome that but I hope the professional meditation sessions I’m going to will help. Maybe they would work for you.

Deb – I would try Dr. Kat but right now, I would have to miss work to make the times she is available and I can’t do that at the moment. Also, being hearing impaired, I would need somebody with me so they can translate in case I don’t understand something she said. Maybe I can’t get better because I keep wondering if the surgery did do something to me and the cause of this is therefore biological.

[Author]

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