[Mac0908]

Chen have you ever tried talking with Martin? Seems like that is the best route for you to go at this point.

[Odinsky]

So. Ironically last night I just said screw it, and went to bed at 945 when I was tired. Laid and accepted the anxiety, and then woke up 4 hours later. Laid and accepted again, and woke up @ my alarm at 4:45AM. So I got almost 7 hours of sleep. It would have been a lot more sleep if not for alarm, but I don’t want to push it and sleep too long. It’s interesting you guys said that what has helped you most is not having a required schedule. Last few times what dug me out of this hole was the same thought process. I work from home, so I have a flex schedule as well. Took some benzos when I needed them and just chilled out. And I just started sleeping in and not being so concerned with all the details. So, I don’t have a clue what to do now! ACT is easier to do and I seem to recover quicker, but relapse so much. SRT is stressful as heck, but I don’t know maybe it would provide longer term stability. I also wonder if maybe just using ACT, and relapsing and recovering enough, I will realize that I always can recover and it will take away some of the stress of “worrying if it comes back.” I mean, this is quite the affliction. It’s all in our heads. We just can’t get out of our own way. It’s such a weird predicament

[Mac0908]

You have to wake for work at 4:45am?? Geez. That is rough, no?

[Odinsky]

No, I could wake up at 9am if I wanted to. But, I’ve always slept from 930pm to 6am (when I was a great sleeper). I much prefer the mornings versus the night time. I wanted to come up with a reduced number of hours in bed, and since I like mornings more than evenings, I decided to wake up extra earlier, versus going to bed extra late. I would have probably slept till 9AM this morning if I didn’t have the alarm set though. But I’ve read cautionary tales of insomniacs sleeping terrible for 5 days and then sleeping 9 hours, and then repeating. So, I reluctantly made myself get out of bed even though I’m still exhausted, in hopes of maintaining some sleep drive for tonight again.

Follow up question for you guys. I notice my body aches, almost like the flu. Does this happen to you from lack of sleep? Also, for the first time in my life I have some depression. Any experience with this? I’ve been chronically happy my whole life. I’ve maintained full time jobs, hobbies, having a newborn and running my own furniture shop. I’ve never sat still. I’m definitely lacking motivation right now for anything. I think moving to a new area, and not even being able to make friends due to Covid hurts a lot. Also, did you guys ever feel like you’re afraid of social obligations due to the insomnia? That’s another tough one for me. My old friends back home I’d have no concern with hanging out when I’m exhausted. But I almost feel reluctant to make social plans with people I don’t know here, in fear I will have 4 days of no sleep before the event, and be surrounded by people I need to make a good impression on. This insomnia striking like this after a move is the worst ! I’d be so much more content being back home with my family and friends and support group.

[Chen Liang]

hi mac-Yeah i am now working things out with martin. He is very patient. I am generally anxious person this is why i have trouble. When you said CBT will take months i already afraid of it i am imagining many days of sleeplessness. You know sleep is the easiest thing to solve i know just let go and stop worrying …. if only my mind is that simple letgo and bum not anxious at all 24 hours my life will just be better.

[gsdmom]

Odinsky – Your question about sleeping or not sleeping with your spouse – that is a tough one as your spouse might take your actions as a rejection to her rather than a method of self-healing for you. Many happily married couples sleep separately due to snoring, the noise of CPAP, or even work schedules. I personally wish I had the luxury of an extra bedroom, if so I would make it my own. but marriage is not good and I am not is the financial position to separate and I also obligations to aid a disabled family member.

Body aches – Yes, for a few months last year I had chronic body aches, especially in my larger leg muscles, they felt so heavy when walking. At that time I was only getting about 2-3 hours sleep per night, sometimes zero sleep nights. I also lost my appetite. As for social plans, I know with insomnia you are supposed to live your life as normal as possible, but for some of us we get that special event insomnia. If there is a special occasion coming up, I think it is OK to take a sleep aid the night before.

I know you are so fatigued and desperate to feel better you want a quick fix to start sleeping better and think sleep restriction will help. For me, that brings on extra anxiety. A sleep window is OK, but make it 7-8 hours, give your body a chance to restore itself. Also for me, one of the benefits of ACT and trying to stay calm in bed is that it gave me more daytime energy even if I didn’t sleep. There are some nights I’d get out of bed to re-set myself, I’d walk in the dark, go in the kitchen to get some water or herbal tea, then sit in the living room quietly for 15-20 minutes and I remember so many times rubbing my muscles because they ached so much! I didn’t always sleep after that, but it calmed me down. I recently had depression for 3-4 weeks before being aware of it. Once I was aware of it, I was able to change my perspective and then quickly got out of it. ACT can be used for all situations in life, not just sleep. It seems your primary anxiety is from your move and new environment, can you use ACT to accept those feelings and pressures? Hang in there, its been such a long process for me and I seem to relapse every 7-10 days and then have 3 nights of bad sleep, but when I sleep now its getting deeper and a bit longer, almost 7hours. I feel our nervous systems are shot and we have to be gentle with ourselves to help with healing.

[Manfred]

@Chen CBT-I is considered to be the best treatment option for this type of insomnia: “Longitudinal studies have shown the most effective treatment for psychophysiological insomnia is cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT). This treatment helps patients eliminate the beliefs and misconceptions they have about sleep.”

I have also (sometimes) a big problem with sleep anxiety.

I am a fan of both CBT-I and ACT elements. In fact, I think the “C” part of CBT-I relates to the ACT elements. So for me, it is noth either this one or that one approach. I use elements of both.
Right now, I am working hard on the “acceptance” part.

I like the DARE approach a lot. There is a great book and an excellent APP. But the principle are always the same (as in the “Sleep Book”): accpting, even embracing anxiety, non resistance aso. I work on these things a lot. But as Martin says, these things are a sort of higher skill. So SRT/Stimulus control work often better (or first) when ur not able to work in a constructive way with ur anxiety.

Good luck!

[Mac0908]

Looking at all these recent posts with some of these people struggling, it really takes me back to such a dark terrible time in my life. I sympathize with each and every one of you and also know you can get through this, eventually. I still can’t even believe it sometimes, all the hell I went through. It really is something how it took over my life for so long. I pray it never returns full fledged.

[Chen Liang]

Hi mac- please tell me how long you did SRT to reap the overall benefit? You know without prescription meds i can go days i mean almost weeks without sleep ,0 sleep nada nill!!! Thats how bad the anxiety is!! Doing SRT is like adding hell on a hellish life!! But i want to hear positive feedback! Maybe it is all worth it … putting yourself in torture to finally defeat it. I need your opinion since you said you have done it months. My case is quite bad you know even when the sleep drive is crazy high i still go days with 0 sleep . I dont know is this normal or maybe its an effect of withdrawal from the meds. I seriously want to quit meds but my doctor do not approve at all. Make me in a position of dilemma.

[Chen Liang]

Hi manfred- thank you i understand what you are saying but i have super hard time implementing it. My doctor said i am generally genetically anxious person which is the perfect storm for insomnia. My battle is against my personality trying to not follow my anxiety is like against a big wave of water trying to swim through it. If that make sense for you.

[Manfred]

@Chen of course I understand. I advise you to work with Martin (I think he says CBT-I works normally even with drugs, but ask him). And he always says that when working with him, stay of the forum. It only triggers you. Good luck!!

@Mac – glad to hear you are doing better or even good these days. May I ask you how did u arrive there? What did u do? ACT? CBT-I? Was it an anxiety-problem? Did you have also anxiety during the day? Thanks in advance for ur input. All the best.

[Mac0908]

For me it was ultimately a mixture of things ranging from starting with Sasha Stephens book to reddit forums all the way to finally giving in and starting SRT in January 2019. Two years ago I was an anxiety ridden freak in ways I can’t begin to get into. But back to SRT, each time I would begin doing well on it I’d start slacking off (I just couldn’t help it) and the bad nights/anxiety would soon return. By the summertime I began feeling hopeless. There were about 3 solid phases of SRT for me over the course of around 10 months, each one lasting a little longer than the last, and each one helping ease my overall anxiety more and more IMO. Every relapse ultimately made me realize my mistakes/bad habits which helped make me stronger in the long run if that makes sense. It was a journey, and yes, even a “battle” at times. It was NOT easy. I was a work in progress. There is absolutely no overnight fix for a chronic insomniac.

But after my “failed” SRT attempts came to a head and I had nowhere else to turn, I went to ACT after those 10 months and for the first time in a long long time I began sleeping well for multiple nights in a row WITHOUT any kind of strict rules (i.e. SRT/CBT-i). This was a powerful change and made me realize that I really wasn’t “damaged” beyond repair. By the time 2020 rolled around, though I was doing much better, I was still struggling at times as the one huge problem that in my honest opinion was holding the remaining sleep anxiety in place was my 6am work alarm. I was never a morning person in general and even pre insomnia 6am was always a bit of a struggle. I was a different person in my head and knew I could sleep well as ACT showed me, but I knew I needed a work change to truly break free from insomnia and in an ironic twist of fate, right around the time where I was entering another relapse, Covid hit and we were sent to work from home. For the last 2.5 months now I have been sleeping well around what I’d say is 85% of the time. I’ve been waking around 7am, going to bed around 11 if not a little later with no worries on my mind, and it’s been a beautiful thing.

I know full well things will change for the worse once I return to the office and I’ve accepted that, but I just hope that they can be managed well enough to the point where I can use the confidence I built over these last 2.5 months to somehow overcome things and get to a decent place. Also just to answer your other question yes I had some anxiety during the day when my insomnia was at its peak, but it was mostly at nighttime when bedtime would start approaching. Years ago now I would literally walk to my bedroom like it was an execution room. While I’m still not fully recovered by any means, those types of days are long gone now at least.

[Odinsky]

MAC, question for you. I’m so confused right now because I decided not to try SRT and two nights ago I gave myself a decent sleep window of 7 hours and I slept great. Last night I did the same and I barely slept 2 hours. I lay there with acceptance, watching thoughts. My heart rate is fine, mentally i’m calm, but I am extremely nervous in the stomach. Did this ever happen to you? Whereas you mentally feel OK, but your physically nervous? I felt fine all day yesterday. I didn’t even think about sleep. I was watching TV with the wife around 9PM and all of a sudden felt nervous. I wasn’t thinking much though, but still the sensation of being nervous in the pit of my stomach (butterflies) started strongly. I accepted it, knew I couldn’t change it and I could sleep with it there. But, I laid in bed and kind of went half into this wake/sleep state for half an hour, woke up, and then couldn’t get back to sleep. I’ll just lay there all night. Accepting, mentally calm, slow heart rate etc.. But still feel nervous and be wide awake with my eyes closed. I’m not sure why I still have such a strong physical reaction when I am mentally accepting. Any experience with this?

[Mac0908]

odinsky, you are all over the place. Any given night someone can have a good night of sleep even during bad insomnia. Happened to me all the time. I didn’t have bad nights every single night for a year. I suggest you begin SRT in order to get to a place where you can begin sleeping through the night for several days if not weeks at a time. Then after that if your overall anxiety is still at a bad place you can start thinking about bringing in other tools to help.

[Odinsky]

Yes I definitely am! I’m going to just give SRT a try then. Did the introduction of a sleep window make you even more nervous? I think that’s my hesitation. I’m already obviously anxious, and the idea of limiting sleep makes me even more anxious. I kind of view the start of the window like a race flag, knowing if I don’t fall right to sleep i’m going to be in trouble. Did this happen to you in the beginning?

[Author]

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